Posted by My OB said WHAT?!?.
Jun
11
Posted by My OB said WHAT?!?.
“Your Son Is Healthy Despite You.”
“Your son is healthy despite you.” – Pediatrician to mother who did not supplement her 5 month old son with formula and had chosen not to vaccinate.
There are 121 comments to this post.
Jessica had this to say,
Jun 11, 2012 @ 5:51 pm (Quote)
And he’ll be even healthier when I find a doctor who supports my decisions and respects me as his mother.
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Lisa in Texas Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 6:06 pm (Quote)
This!!
My pediatrician would prefer that I vaccinate, but he respects my decision not to.
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SuzyHomemaker Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 11:51 pm (Quote)
Mine too.
As it should be. Doctors are there to provide medical advice but the final word is always the parents choice. Any doctor who forgets that fact or looses respect for that fact is on a slippery slope to forgetting informed consent.
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Tsu Dho Nimh Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 5:05 am (Quote)
Until, of course, he runs into someone who is in the early stages of any of the diseases vaccines prevent … then he’s going to run the usual risks of that disease. Those “mild childhood diseases” can kill your precious snowflake, or leave him/her with permanent damage.
If you are reading the side effects of vaccines, look up “permanent sequelae” of the diseases you thing are mild.
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Rebecca Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 6:36 am (Quote)
I think most people who have chosen not to vaccinate have made an informed decision- including the risks of not vaccinating.
For my part, I selectively vaccinated my son after a vaccination reaction that put him in the ER. The *VACCINE MANUFACTURER* and FDA said he was contraindicated from receiving that vaccine again, but I continually was pressured by physicians and schools to “catch up” his vaccines, despite the very real risk of it causing permanent brain damage.
That vaccine has been reformulated since, and after research and discussion with a pediatrician who understood *and respected* my concerns, my spouse and I chose to vaccinate our daughter according to the currently recommended schedule.
Not all people who choose not to vaccinate, or choose to selectively vaccinate, or choose to vaccinate on a different schedule are doing it just because they think vaccines are bad (though I have some serious concerns about the amount we vaccinate against.)
In my case. . . Bringing a two year old to the hospital with febrile seizures and a temp of 106 at admit despite having administered Tylenol is too much of a risk to have repeated.
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Wendy Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 8:51 am (Quote)
It’s attitudes like yours who make pro-vaccine people seem like arrogant jerks! You make the assumption that people who choose not to have their children vaccinated are uninformed twats who go with the advice of celebrities. In my experience, it’s those who choose to forgo or delay vaccinations do a lot more research than those who blindly follow the recommended schedule. Get over yourself and realize that twenty different people can read (and fully understand) one study and come up with twenty different conclusions.
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first time mommy had this to say,
Jun 11, 2012 @ 5:52 pm (Quote)
So my son being healthy is pure coincidence and is sheer luck and has nothing to do with my parenting choices? Because I know “nothing” and you, Almighty Ped, are the All Knowing?
Yeah, ok. You’re fired. Gooooodbye. On the way out, don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya 
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Vaccines saves lives.
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Meredith Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 7:15 pm (Quote)
HAHA! Oh wait…is that serious?
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Jennifer Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 8:11 pm (Quote)
Um, yes? How the hell do you think smallpox was eradicated, polio very nearly so, and rates of other infectious diseases slashed? Maybe you should try talking to someone old enough to remember the pre-vaccine days, or travel to a developing country where vaccines are barely available. Then get back to me.
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Bonita Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 8:13 pm (Quote)
So our hygeine and healthcare is no better than those days or a 3rd world country? Really? That is interesting.
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Lisa in Texas Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 8:20 pm (Quote)
Pro or anti-vax isn’t the issue here. It’s the rude attitude of the doctor. If he doesn’t respect the mother, then they should part ways and she could find a different doctor.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 8:45 pm (Quote)
It’s up to her whether she wants to find a different doctor. See a few spaces below for a possible situation in which I could see a comment like this being made; sometimes one has to be rude when people dismiss necessary attempts at persuasion. (I wouldn’t say respecting the mother necessarily means respect every decision she makes on behalf of her son.)
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Jennifer Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 8:46 pm (Quote)
OK, maybe you should visit one of the towns in the U.S. where children have died of measles outbreaks. Or the UK, where vaccination rates have fallen low enough for the nation as a whole to lose herd immunity.
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mharry Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 9:19 pm (Quote)
If she’s making enough milk, why not supplementing would be a problem I have no idea. Breast is best, isn’t that what they say?
But in my neck of the woods, 8 babies died of whooping cough in one county last winter. Vaccines are kind of a must. I really do insist that I can’t be around an unvaccinated baby. I haven’t had my boosters (waiting for the better insurance to kick in) and I don’t want one of both of us suffering for it. Herd immunity only works if the heard is immune. If you know whole clusters of parents who didn’t vaccinate their kids, like you, then you know an area with little to no herd immunity.
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kix Reply:
June 15th, 2012 at 1:06 am (Quote)
Did you know the majority of those dying and severly sick of whooping cough are the ones that are fully vaxed? They are injecting people with a mild form of the illness and it weakens the immune systems and cause many who already have weak systems or even just have a cold when they get the shot to contract the full blown illness. Also smallpox vax eradicated nothing, only 10% of the population was ever vaxed. Polio these days is caused by the oral vax.
Oh, and herd immunity was based on natural immunity where they got the disease, passed it around and got over it. The odds of your child contracting a vaccine injury is 1 in 1 million, the odds of your child contracting polio in the US is 1in 1 billion.
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Meredith Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 9:25 pm (Quote)
And maybe you should learn what “herd immunity” really means and understand that it has nothing to do with vaccines! For pete’s sake, if you want to debate vaccines, know what you’re talking about. Herd immunity in relation to vaccines is a big fat myth. Also, do you have any idea what percentage of children getting measles and pertussis are fully vaccinated? Look it up, I dare you.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 9:47 pm (Quote)
All, right, I’ll indulge you. What is herd immunity?
Oh, look, an actual doctor addressing both your points.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/herd-immunity/
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Amy Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 8:20 am (Quote)
Yes, because *especially* on this site, what an ACTUAL DOCTOR says is 100% right, and should be followed exactly to the letter, because the ACTUAL DOCTOR is always, always right. Anyone other than the ACTUAL DOCTOR is totally and completely wrong.
Always.
Did I get that right?
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Jennifer Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 10:30 am (Quote)
No, actually, I didn’t say that. I just have this crazy belief that speaking from expertise is generally better than talking out of your hat. Unless you have some medical or scientific training I’m not aware of? I’d love to hear about it.
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Amy Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 2:26 pm (Quote)
I do actually. Not that I am going to bother to post my CV.
Firstly, my training is irrelevant. Your argument is that this link is definitive because it was written by a doc. You said, and I *quote* :
“Oh look, an actual doctor addressing both of your points.”
It is a fallacy to argue that the degrees held by those making the argument are more important than the argument itself. What you are saying is that MD trumps truth. And that’s false. In fact, the fallacy that if an MD says it, it has gravatis, and anything else is lesser, is pretty much the basis for this entire site.
And, for two, if you don’t understand logic and/or the scientific method, my CV is probably nothing you would understand anyway.
~A
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Jennifer Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 3:00 pm (Quote)
Look, I was being snarky because of the utter lack of understanding of the scientific method MEREDITH was showing. I also asked her where she thought I was wrong, which she never answered. See, it wasn’t really addressed at you in the first place, and contained nothing that should cause you to question my understanding of “logic and/or the scientific method, unless you’re addressing one of my other post, in which I would legitimately be interested to hear where you find flaws.
BTW, did you actually read the article at the link, or did you decide to tune it out as soon as you’d decided I was blindly appealing to authority? Because if you’re going to talk about “the argument itself,” it’d be nice if you addressed the argument itself. The point of the snark in the first place was frustration with shear ignorance, and while of course I’m not saying that every thing a doctor says is the weird of God, they tend to at least now and be good at explaining what “herd immunity” is. Which Meredith, who I was responding to, has no Earthly idea of, but seems convinced she does.
Another way to look at this: Lots of contractors are crooks, but does that mean if you need a kitchen renovation, the opinion of some Joe Schmoe is likely just as good, or better because you can avoid getting ripped off? Or is it likely to make your kitchen fall apart?
Short version: Someone said something inaccurate, I provided a link to explain the inaccuracy accompanied by a snarky comment, the end.
Jen Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 5:16 pm (Quote)
May I ask what *your* credentials are? And do you have sources to back up *all* of your statements, besides the one link?
I actually do believe vaccines are good, though not without risk, but what bothers me is your insinuation that anyone who chooses differently than you is a bad parent. *Most families who choose not to vaccinate take the time to inform themselves on the risks and benefits. That is NOT being neglectful, quite the opposite.
For myself, after looking at several quality sources from both sides and weighing the risks and benefits as they relate to my specific family and our circumstances, I chose to selectively vaccinate on an alternate sechedule.
*Yes, I’m sure there are people who don’t bother to research and choose not to vaccinate because all their friends don’t, and there are people who don’t vaccinate because they can’t afford it or never get around to it. But most people who make a choice contrary to the majority of their culture do so after a lot of thought and research.
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abba12 Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 10:28 pm (Quote)
I’ve seen 3 youngsters with whooping cough the past couple years. All three were vaccinated with parents who got their boosters as recomended. My non vaccinated daughter has managed to not get it despite being directly exposed by accident twice, and probably indirectly exposed repeatedly. One of those cases actually developed within weeks of the vaccine, and it has been theorised that he developed it because of the vaccine, not despite it. He was in hospital.
Measels would be a hell of a lot less of an issue if doctors didn’t assume that it couldn’t be measels as a result of vaccination, thus diagnosing it much later than they should and often too late for effective help. I had a bad experience with that exact situation recently. Doctors don’t even consider these supposedly awful conditions in their diagnosis anymore because people aren’t supposed to get them anymore.
I actually cannot vaccinate for medical reasons, both my brother and I had severe reactions, including swelling of the brain, to a vaccination as children (it was called the triple antigen at the time, we believe it was the whooping cough component but cannot confirm this, it also contained tetnus and something else, it’s all since changed but since researchers refuse to admit there are side effects to vaccines, much less research what causes them, we cannot know what element caused it). This reaction and recomendation not to vaccinate was confirmed by two actual doctors, not simply home science. We know a man who had the same reaction we did as a child, it was dismissed as nothing by the doctor before the booster was given. As far as I understand, he became basically braindead within a day or two of the booster.
I think I’ll take my chances with the real, and natural, diseases. I will say you’re correct on one thing though, when these diseases do happen now they spread so widely and quickly and the effect can be terrible, because people now think, since we have vaccines, there’s no reason to take care when you’re contagious. Kids are constantly dropped off at daycare and school with diseases. There’s been an issue recently because the building my playgroup uses, and is also used by baby groups, is also a daycare and we were informed last week that a parent has been dropping off their whooping cough positive child without telling anyone. Praying none of the babies have caught anything, since like I said before all the cases of whooping cough I’ve seen have been with vaccinated toddlers. When I was pregnant last someone who suspected they had the early stages of chicken pox went out to lunch with me and did not even tell me they thought they had it until they were leaving and complained how some family member had given it to them and how the vaccine was supposed to stop it. I was horrified, because, since everyone was vaccinated as kids, I never got to have chicken pox when it was harmless in my childhood. When a child has measels they’re not kept inside in a darkened room anymore, they’re often not even noticed until the rash appears for a couple of days and they’ve been at school the whole time. So yes, ourbreaks are bad, but I blame it not on lack of vaccination, but on people believing vaccines are 100%, assuming everyone is vaccinated, and proceeding to care nothing for basic hygene and keeping away from others when sick.
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Pauline Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 10:58 pm (Quote)
@abba12:
The plural of anecdote is not data.
Three vaccinated kids getting whooping cough and one unvaccinated staying healthy does not prove that vaccines don’t work. Just like a baby growing up healthy on formula while three breastfed babies gets sick, doesn’t prove that formula is healther.
Please.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 11:39 pm (Quote)
Yes. Also, having a medical reason to not get vaccinated, such as a history of adverse vaccine reactions, is different than simply deciding all vaccines are bad. High vaccination rates in the general population help protect those who can’t get immunized through herd immunity, so widespread vaccination is actually to the benefit of people like you. It also helps protect those in the vaccinated population who are still vulnerable for various reasons. (Yes, vaccination isn’t 100%, but widespread vaccination makes exposure less likely.) I will agree that sending sick kids to school is not OK, and basic hygiene rules are still necessary.
I do feel the need to note that chicken pox is not always harmless in children. It can sometimes lead to serious complications requiring hospitalization and even, in rare cases, death. I consider myself fortunate that when I had it (pre-vaccination) I only had to deal with a lot of itching.
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Susan Ireland Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 12:17 am (Quote)
Hello.
I live in the UK, where chicken pox is not included in the public health vacination schedule. I am pro-vacination and my daughter, Catherine, had had all the vaccines offered. It did not occur to me that the UK Govt would leave vaccines for deadly diseases off the schedule.
My daughter was nearly 4 and previously in perfect health. She died.
You can read about the utter pain and misery her death has brough here.
http://www.susansobspot.blogspot.co.uk/
The vaccination would have saved her life. She is dead.
I hate it when people have these flippant arguments about vaccines not being important. I sometimes tell them to come back and tell me about it after they’ve lost one of their kids. Just because your child got lucky doesn’t mean vaccinnes don’t save lives. They would have saved Catherine’s.
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abba12 Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 12:53 am (Quote)
And having the vaccine has killed children too. I am very sorry for your loss, any loss of a child is terrible. Chicken pox, whooping cough, measels, they can all result in the death of children. But so can the vaccinations made to protect them. It’s a matter of deciding the lessr of two evils. You argue that chicken pox killed your daughter, the people we know argue that vaccinations basically killed their son. I argue vaccination would have killed me if my mother had followed the directions of her original doctor (confirmed by a specialist). Both have killed, both will continue to kill in rare occasions, and deaths in either instance are awful things. What we need to do is find out which of the two options results in less deaths/severe side effects and research how to prevent these deaths. But for as long as the doctors refuse to see the side effects of vaccines, we can never recieve truly accurate data either way (I completely admit to there being bias on our side as well)
Refering to my comment of chicken pox being harmless in childhood, I know it can become complicated, even the common cold can result in death in some rare circumstances. I was specifically referring to someone knowingly exposing a pregnant woman to chicken pox. Chicken pox in pregnancy is far more likely to result in complications and permenant disability to the baby, so in that specific example, chicken pox as a child is far less dangerous.
I am well aware that a few annecdotes do not equal reliable data, but no one has reliable data, doctors refuse to acknowlege/record vaccine related complications, and anti-vaxers try to blame other things for complications arising from vaccinatable diseases while doctors try to blame lack of vaccination even in cases where there WAS other factors, because the doctor dosen’t want to feel helpless, and if the issue was vaccination then they can blame something other than themselves or things out of their control. Don’t we see this pattern constantly on this forum? Though I think 3 out of 3 cases of whooping cough being in vaccinated kids does indicate a pattern, how widespread the pattern is I cannot say.
I agree with the theory of herd immunity, but the simple fact is, most people who report vaccine reactions only react to one vaccine. I cannot know if my daughter will react or not until I give it to her. It’s all well and good to say that others vaccinating will protect me, but I didn’t know I would react until I did, and I was simply fortunate to not react more severely. Some kids die or are brain damaged from their first exposure to a vaccine they react to. If we could know with absolute certainty that child A will not react, and child B will be killed, I would give child A the vaccine and be happy in the knowlege child A will help protect child B. But it dosen’t work like that. What you’re saying is all kids should be vaccinated until they give a reaction to something, at which point we hope and pray the reaction causes no severe or permenant issues, and then if they survive we just ‘don’t do it again’. Anyone else have a problem with this mentality? If doctors admitted there were reactions and began finding out WHY, instead of spending time and money trying to convince people that reactions don’t happen, maybe we could get to the point where we COULD say child A can be safely vaccinated and child B cannot. Until we get there, I am not letting my daughter be a lab rat, and waiting to see if she’s one of the unlucky ones. I choose to take my chances with the natural diseases. I’ll do my best to protect your children by observing common sense hygene and containment (even while people ignore the fact vaccinated kids can carry the disease without displaying symptoms themselves, and no one seems to care about protecting my child) and hopefully one day we will get to the point where medicine develops so either one path or the other is safe. But until then, I don’t feel trial and error is a particularly good, or moral, way to practice medicine.
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Melly Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 1:04 am (Quote)
I’m so sorry for your loss. A woman I volunteer with at school lost her first child to a complication of chicken pox at 18 months of age. It’s tragic that this happens, and it makes me very angry to hear people downplay the importance of the chicken pox vaccine.
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j_holmes09 Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 7:51 am (Quote)
You will be in my prayers. Sending you a virtual hug
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Lisa Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 8:26 am (Quote)
Circumcision killed more kids last year than chickenpox, but if you try to ban that you’re *Taking away the parent’s rights!* and *Trying to ban religious freedoms!* and *Trying to force your beliefs on others!*
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Goldilocks Reply:
June 14th, 2012 at 5:31 am (Quote)
What does this comment have to do with anything to being talked about?
Also circumcision has a death toll around what 400 maybe 500 in the first world, mostly occurring due to child already being sick or the doctor being negligent. Before the vaccine chickenpox claimed far far more little lives.
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SculptorAlison Reply:
June 14th, 2012 at 7:51 pm (Quote)
No, chicken pox has never been especially deadly. Here’s a site that’s basically touting the efficacy of the chicken pox vaccine at reducing deaths from the disease and their numbers don’t even come close to 400-500 a year. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/07/21/peds.2010-3385
Morgan Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 7:01 am (Quote)
Anyone who claims that vaccinations were responsible for the reduction in polio instantly loses all credibility with me because anyone making that claim has obviously not researched it.
Did you know that when they released the polio vaccine they changed the requirements for being diagnosed with it?
Prior to mass vaccination, you needed symptoms A,B,C, and D to have polio. Post vaccine, you needed symptoms A,B,C,D,E, and F to have polio. If you only had symptoms A,B,C,and D you somehow magically had Guillaine Barre Syndrome or menegitis (and I believe there was at least one other disease used).
Polio is not the only disease that has undergone this renaming process. Since I started researching vaxes with my first, this is one of the best articles I’ve found that summarizes the phenomenon:
A quote:
“After vaccination was introduced, cases of aseptic meningitis were more often reported as a separate disease from polio, but such cases were counted as polio before the vaccine was introduced. The Ministry of Health admitted that the vaccine status of the individual is a guiding factor in diagnosis. If a person who is vaccinated contracts the disease, the disease is simply recorded under a different name.”
I will happily vaccinate my kids when they are proven safe and effective. As of today, that hasn’t happened. There has never been a single study done that evaluates the safety of the current vaccine schedule. Not one. The pharmaceutical companies that produce vaccines and the doctors who administer them have been given a free ride and are not liable for the damages/deaths their vaccines cause. In *any other* industry people are liable for their product…but I guess when you’re dealing with somewhere around 27 BILLION dollars a year, you can buy whatever you want…including laws to protect that profit.
Another good read on the recent film “The Greater Good” which is all about vaccine safety.
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Tsu Dho Nimh Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 9:47 am (Quote)
If what you claim is correct, if the polio vaccine was a failure and they just redefined the diagnostic criteria to make it seem like there was no more polio … where are all the children on crutches? And in iron lungs? Where did they go?
Explain to me how redefining the diagnostic criteria can make children vanish.
NOTE: As disease causing organisms are identified and tests for them are developed, what was a large affected group gets split … what used to be just “viral hepatitis” is now Hepatitis A, B, C, D, and maybe E (I forget how many have been ID’d) … with the remaining cases as “Hepatis from unidentified cause”.
“Aseptic meningitis” … that just meant meningitis where no bacteria can be isolated, and it’s become a catch-all for any meningitis where a virus can’t be isolated or identified by serological testing.
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Morgan Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 10:16 am (Quote)
Polio was already on the decline before the vaccine was developed…just like every VPD. All diseases go through a life cycle where it shows up, peaks, then tapers off. Naturally, due to the *normal cycle of disease,* there will be less cases of paralysis due to polio.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 10:31 am (Quote)
So are you saying there will eventually be more polio some day? I kind of doubt it.
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Morgan Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 11:14 am (Quote)
There still is polio, just not in first world countries. Polio is transmitted by the fecal/oral route. Given that we have a good sanitation system and know to wash our hands after we use the restroom, I absolutely agree that we will see little to no wild polio here…which is yet another reason I won’t vax my kids for it.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 12:27 pm (Quote)
You do know that polio used to paralyze and kill a lot of people in first-world countries, right? It wasn’t because they didn’t have toilets and didn’t wash their hands.
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Morgan Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 12:38 pm (Quote)
I’m well aware of the history of polio, as well as the risk my children have of contracting it and suffering lifelong complications of it.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 12:55 pm (Quote)
Are you counting on no one with polio ever visiting the U.S.? China had a polio outbreak last year after being polio-free for 10 years. Herd immunity is also extremely important for curbing polio. If widespread vaccination stopped, a resurgence would be entirely possible. So really, when you say you don’t need to vaccinate your child, you’re just relying at least 95% of the country continuing to vaccinate. Your children’s low risk didn’t come out of nowhere.
Jennifer Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 10:22 am (Quote)
You have to have poliovirus to have polio. That has never changed. Diagnosis is made based on antibody tests, not just symptoms. Aspetic meningitis is a set of symptoms that can be caused by polio, among other things. It’s not mutually exclusive with polio (i.e. if I say that someone has aspetic meningitis, I’m not saying they don’t have polio).
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Wendy Reply:
June 14th, 2012 at 3:32 am (Quote)
The problem, Jennifer, is that most doctors will refuse to check for polio if the patient has been vaccinated against it. They will assume it’s “just” aseptic meningitis without even considering that it’s poliomyelitis. Because they’re conditioned to go with the assumption that the vaccine worked.
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Kate @ Modern Alternative Mama had this to say,
Jun 11, 2012 @ 6:51 pm (Quote)
EEK. Time to walk out. Wow. That is just so disrespectful. (Coming from a mama with three breastfed, unvaccinated, healthy children….)
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Really? I mean, I’ve been positively drowning him in antibodies, making sure he’s warm and clean, loved and taken care of… Hmm, maybe I should leave him on a wind-swept crag somewhere? Would that do the trick of making him ill so YOU have something to do?
I think the doc is a bit jealous. And because she can’t openly support the mother for going against what is medically advised, she has to belittle and guilt-trip the mother to make mom think she’s doing something wrong. Because if mom doubts herself, maybe she’ll “conform.”
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Jennifer Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 8:08 pm (Quote)
A doctor’s job isn’t to support every single thing his mother decides to do. It’s to provide medical advice. (You know, what he was trained in?) This doctor was right, and vaccines DO save lives. And what on Earth would the doctor be “jealous” of? He’s speaking up in the hopes that in the future, this child WON’T get sick, because medicine is some giant conspiracy to make everyone sick just so they can get treated because doctors are bored or something.
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Lisa in Texas Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 8:23 pm (Quote)
The doctor doesn’t have to support everything the mother decides to do, but the mother doesn’t deserve to be belittled like that. In some cases, vaccines save lives. In some cases, they have hurt children, and by extension, entire families. All the doctor had to say was, “Your son is healthy. I hope we can talk in the future about your decision not to vaccinate. I feel strongly about it, and would like to share some information with you.”
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Lisa in Texas Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 8:25 pm (Quote)
Oh, and saying, “Your son is healthy DESPITE you,” isn’t proving medical advice, Jennifer. It’s being snarky. My pediatrician provided literature for me to read that explained why he supported vaccines, and addressed my concerns in a professional manner. That’s an example of actually providing medical advice.
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BeckyJ Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 8:37 pm (Quote)
*like* I was going to say all of what you said. lol
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Jennifer Reply:
June 11th, 2012 at 8:41 pm (Quote)
Well, I don’t know the context this statement was made in. If it was in response to the mother answer an attempt to provide information with a dismissive, “But my son is healthy!” than I would agree it’s not the nicest thing in the world, but I would argue it also wouldn’t be completely unwarranted. There comes a point when one needs to dispense with the niceness.
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MsCommons Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 7:58 am (Quote)
No, no there does not – a professional never gets to dispense with the niceness. It is not this doctor’s job to provide “tough love.” It is this doctor’s job to provide facts in a professional and non-judgmental way, and to respect and work with a patient’s right to make his or her own choices. This is true even if the doctor thinks his patient is absolutely wrong and making a harmful choice. It is the patient’s right to make that choice and live with it. If the doctor is truly uncomfortable, there are mechanisms in place to terminate the patient-doctor relationship and transfer care. But belittling someone is not an appropriate or particularly effective way to win them over to your viewpoint.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 10:11 am (Quote)
She’s not making the choice for herself, she’s making it on behalf of another human being. She’s risking her son’s health, not her own. And there’s nothing “belittling” about the comment. It’s blunt but true. Being a professional does not mean you have to tiptoe around the truth. Quite the contrary. If the doctor doesn’t want to terminate care, maybe it’s because he doesn’t want to punish an infant for her mother’s choices.
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MsCommons Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 11:23 am (Quote)
It’s your opinion that she’s risking her child’s health, but it’s the mother’s opinion that she is doing the best thing for her child. As the parent, she gets to make that choice, and it is awfully presumptuous for anyone to tell her how to raise her child. Especially given the context, the doctor’s comment is asinine, does not speak to the situation, and is not remotely true. It’s pretty obvious that the doctor was trying to shame the mother for making educated, informed decisions concerning her own child that the doctor happened to disagree with. Shaming and fear-mongering have no place in a professional context. When someone uses tactics like these, it’s a huge red flag that the person has an agenda and no real facts to back them up. The appropriate response when a doctor starts talking like this is to smile and say, “I would love to read any studies you can provide that speak to the safety and efficacy of this treatment.” It’s like in math when kids have to show their work – a doctor can’t just say something is beneficial and have it be so, ESPECIALLY when he is trying to sell me something. If I’m buying, I want to be reasonably confident that it’s worth it.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 12:42 pm (Quote)
You’re presuming that doctors don’t provide information. Most doctors actually don’t expect their word to be taken as gospel and are happy to explain their reasoning and provide scientific evidence.
Would you say that when this mother’s child goes to school, she should be entitled to a vaccine exemption? I don’t really believe that vaccination is “just a personal choice,” because unvaccinated children present a public health risk, which is the reason vaccines are required for school attendance. Those kids getting sent to school with measles in another post? Measles can be spread before symptoms appear. Which means staying healthy is not as simple as “avoid sick people,” and parents can send infectious kids to school without even realizing it.
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Rebecca Reply:
June 13th, 2012 at 7:34 am (Quote)
I’m going to have to disagree with you here. Admittedly this is personal experience with my child who was medically contraindicated from a particular vaccine, but was otherwise fully vaccinated on the recommended schedule.
First, we vaccinated on schedule. He had a reaction. The pediatrician recommended we discontinue that vaccine only. We agreed. It took multiple conversations between the pediatrician’s office and the day care we selected to allow our son to attend it. The pediatrician moved out of town. The pediatrician who replaced her lectured us for *AN HOUR AND A HALF* on our irresponsibility in not vaccinating our son fully despite the reaction being documented in his chart along with the former pediatrician’s recommendation to discontinue that vaccine. We contacted the former pediatrician, who called the new pediatrician for us. The new pediatrician later said “it was our choice whether or not to vaccinate him.” We had the same round and round when he started school. The school said we couldn’t sign the “object to vaccination” form because he was up to date on the rest, so we needed to catch him up for him to enroll. I had to go to the school board to get him enrolled in first grade.
During this period, the vaccine changed, and I discussed with a different pediatrician who I knew to be friendly to selective vaccination from friends who choose not to vaccinate, and I chose to give him the new version of the vaccine.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 13th, 2012 at 12:07 pm (Quote)
Medical contraindications are different, and I agree with you here that the new doctor and the school behaved abysmally here. ANY medical procedure will be inappropriate for some people. I find it particularly galling that objecting to all vaccines would have been acceptable, but they gave you a hard time specifically because he had gotten his other shots. I will also add that one of the main reasons widespread vaccination is important is to protect people like your son who can’t get certain vaccines.
HippyMaMa Reply:
June 14th, 2012 at 2:55 pm (Quote)
so i decide today to scroll through replies and comments, i want to thank all the lovely women who shared their expierences, and give my condolences to those who had to learn lessons the hard way (no one should ever have to bury thier babe!)
But seriously ‘Jennifer’. Troll much?
Fear mongering parents, i am used to, BUT WOWZA!
YOU ARE A WHOLE NEW BREED.
We are currently expecting baby #2, and when asked why i am having so many so close together earlier today, i thought of you.
“We Breed To Combat The Stupidity In The World.”
You obviously have a computer.. try so general research and stop being a Sheep.
I Pray For Your Children.
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Hello.
I live in the UK, where chicken pox is not included in the public health vacination schedule. I am pro-vacination and my daughter, Catherine, had had all the vaccines offered. It did not occur to me that the UK Govt would leave vaccines for deadly diseases off the schedule.
My daughter was nearly 4 and previously in perfect health. She died.
You can read about the utter pain and misery her death has brough here.
http://www.susansobspot.blogspot.co.uk/
The vaccination would have saved her life. She is dead.
I hate it when people have these flippant arguments about vaccines not being important. I sometimes tell them to come back and tell me about it after they’ve lost one of their kids. Just because your child got lucky doesn’t mean vaccinnes don’t save lives. They would have saved Catherine’s.
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abba12 Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 1:01 am (Quote)
As I stated above, vaccinations would have saved your daughter, and I’m so sorry for your loss. But not having vaccinations saved me, and would have saved another young man I know personally.
Deaths occur on both sides because, unfortunately, death is part of life. It’s not nice or right or fair, and I in no way mean to belittle the death of your daughter, but if being vaccinated kills one child and saves another, how can we know which is right? Which child has a higher priority, which child deserved to be alive more? The one killed by not being vaccinated, or the one killed because she was? Neither is fair, neither is right. But children will die either way, there is no option that prevents all deaths. So which deaths are ‘better’ or ‘more acceptable’?
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Mharry Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 7:46 am (Quote)
You didn’t really just ask a bereaved mother to concede that because you have allergic reactions her daughter’s death was less tragic, did you?
The likeliness of children having an adverse reaction is smaller than the chances of a serious disease doing real damage. Furthermore, its unfair to tell a woman who lost her child “Children die all the time, therefore I’m going to take what you said and ignore the main point of it.”
I don’t even have children and I’m going cross-eyed.
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Kristy Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 7:55 am (Quote)
I think what abba is actually saying is more along the lines of ‘I am sorry that your daughter died but anecdotal evidence is really not evidence at all.’ You can’t let one side use an individual story as compelling evidence while chiding the other side for doing the same.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 10:42 am (Quote)
Well, maybe what you ought to be thinking here is “who is more likely to die?” That’s how we make decisions: based on the information we have at hand when we make them. None of us have crystal balls. A child is much more likely to die of chicken pox than they are to die from the chicken pox vaccine.
I think this story was also original posted to counter the assertion that childhood chicken pox is “harmless,” which only needs a single example to refute it. No one on the pro-vaccine side is asserting that vaccines don’t have risks. In fact, you get a whole pamphlet of risks when you or your child gets a vaccine, so I don’t know where all this “the doctors are pretending there are no risks!” nonsense comes from.
Everything in life carries risks. Every time I cross the street, I take a small risk of being hit by a car, even if I cross with the light. I cross the street anyway, with proper precautions, because the consequences of never leaving the block I live on would be severe. Life is risk management.
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Mama Wrench had this to say,
Jun 12, 2012 @ 2:25 am (Quote)
I was never vaccinated as a child, but am as an adult. It’s completely a personal choice. Parents — those who do and those who don’t — need to keep an eye on their children, know their exposure, know the signs and symptoms of reactions and disease and be responsible. I was home schooled; my exposure was very low. Now I’m in the military and my exposure is very high (especially working with people from all over the country). It makes sense to be vaccinated now and have my children vaccinated. When I’m out of the military and my kids are home schooled, we’ll reevaluate.
It’s not a matter of “this is good and right, that is bad and wrong, all parents should do XX.” It’s a matter of parents knowing their children and weighing ALL risks and benefits accordingly.
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racheleh Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 7:55 am (Quote)
No path is completely safe. It comes down to which risk you want to take. I have seen the effects of polio and it made a big effect on me. If another has has a different choice, more power to em. If their child gets sick I will be there for them to lean on as I would hope they would be there for me. To make life 100% safe is impossible. My heart goes out to all.
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Mine!
from the begining this ped was quite interesting.
he was one of those doctors that believes after med school, he didn’t need to learn anything new.
This particular gem of a quote was from my son’s 5 month weight check. (not even a regular apt.)
(my son at the time has gained 7 lbs since birth and was 29.5″.)
Ped: Oh, your only in here once a month huh?
Me: Yup, we’ve been lucky.
Ped: (looking through chart) You don’t just bring him somewhere else when he is sick?
Me: he hasn’t been sick.
Ped: Are you sure?
Me: Im pretty sure i would notice he was sick, especially with nursing.
Ped: Oh. So your still breastfeeding regularly?
Me: 8-12 times a day.
Ped: Well if you supplemented half of those feedings he will be healthier.
Me: No Thank You. He is fine
Ped: Well while your here we should atleast play catch up with his vaccinations. He needs his 2 month and 4 month boosters today.
Me: Um. No.
Ped: (looking feverishly through chart)
Well, Even though you wont take my recomendation to give your son formula instead, and you wont vaccinate on my schedule, Your Son Is Healthy Despite You.
Me: Aw thankyou!
this doctor was definetly a piece of work, but not half as bad as some of the other nightmare docs i have read about on here!
worst he Ever done was trying to do an unneccesary breast exam at my 8 week post partum check… which was handled almost the same manner of ‘i will remove your hand at the stump’…lol…
Thankyou for posting my quote!
(p.s: i know vaccines are a hot topic, but this decision is the right one for myself, my husband and my son. when he is old enough to decide for himself, then he can get Any shot he wants! Same reason why we didnt circ’ him. Not Our Body, Not Our Choice. I appreciate the support i have recieved regareding this doctor, but my son’s vaccination status (or lack there of) Is Not Up For Discussion.
Have A Nice Day & Thank You!
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MsCommons Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 8:14 am (Quote)
Wow what a piece of work. Glad you can laugh it off, but I’d get out of there just the same – if your son were to actually get sick, it doesn’t sound like this guy would know what to do at all!
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sue Reply:
June 13th, 2012 at 9:12 am (Quote)
MsCommons – Please refrain from insulting the OP. We are here to support each other.
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Kristy Reply:
June 13th, 2012 at 9:16 am (Quote)
Um… she is clearly referring to the *doctor*.
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MsCommons Reply:
June 13th, 2012 at 9:30 am (Quote)
Sorry if that wasn’t clear. It is the doctor who is the piece of work – If I ever have to deal with a situation similar to HippyMaMa’s, I hope I can handle it with as much class as she did! But I’d probably hit the wall if somebody tried to give my kid a double-dose of shots in one day. And I would be extremely upset about a doctor who undermines good breastfeeding relationships by recommending formula for no good reason. How many patients do you think he’s told something similar to? Shame on him. SHAME!
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Jane Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 9:03 am (Quote)
Ped: Well if you supplemented half of those feedings he will be healthier.
So let’s get this straight: it’s shocking to this pediatrician that a baby might go an entire month without being sick enough to see a doctor, but if you give the baby half his feedings a day as formula, your son will get *just as healthy as the rest of the practice*? Healthier than not needing to see a doctor?
Huh?
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Kristy Reply:
June 13th, 2012 at 9:31 am (Quote)
He would have been *suuuperbaby*… leaping tall buildings, faster than a speeding bullet… the works. Poor kid left being just healthy when he could have been *invincible*…lol.
See… she was suppose to supplement with his special ‘Mad Scientists R Us’ formula which lets baby develop superpowers… but he must be seen by the doc weekly so he can cackle wildly and record the test results for posterity.
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Details Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 9:56 am (Quote)
So this guy is dragging you in every month for a weight check? So you can sit in his waitng room and pick up germs? For a healthy baby who is gaining and growing well? I wouldn’t set foot in the place ever again! What is this a WIC office? Actually a WIC office might be a better choice if you really do want/need to keep an eye on baby’s weight.
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SuzyHomemaker had this to say,
Jun 12, 2012 @ 7:31 am (Quote)
Reading through the comments I see one mother whose son would most likely suffer brain damage if he received a certain vaccination again, and another mother whose daughter was lost because she was not vaccinated.
These are very serious, very real, very terrifying effects of both being vaccinated AND not being vaccinated. Proving that either choice has benefits as well as risks.
So why is it some people like to make the matter very black vs white?
There is not a right nor a wrong. Only a choice to be made.
As mothers we have to look at our specific situation: our family history, our child’s health, our exposure rate, allergies, drug sensitivities, etc.. and we each make a decision that is right FOR OUR OWN CHILD. Not for anyone else’s child but for our own.
The decision I make might be different than the decision my neighbor, best friend, sister-in-law, etc.. make but I don’t respect them any less for it because I know they are doing what they feel is best for their own child, the same as I am doing what I feel is best for my child.
Being a mom is hard enough. Trying to raise children who are emotionally, mentally, physically, and spiritually healthy in an otherwise unhealthy world. Why must we make things harder by judging other mothers and arguing with them over choices which they have every right to make? Why not just say, “its not for me and my children but I’m happy it works for you and yours.”
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SuzyHomemaker Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 7:41 am (Quote)
By the way, I am a pro-homebirthing, anti-circumcision, pro-breastfeeding, pro-cloth diapering, anti-vaccinating, anti-cio’ing, pro-homeschooling, religious woman. My husband and the father of my two children is anti-homebirthing, pro-circumcision, pro-formula feeding, anti-cloth diapering, pro-vaccinating, pro-cio’ing, anti-homeschooling, atheist. And we show each other more respect in regards to making parenting choices for our own children than many of the women on this site do when debating these hot topics.
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Kit Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 12:28 pm (Quote)
Thank you. I haven’t said anything on this post for this reason. I make the decision for my children, that is not a judgment on any other parent’s decisions for their children.
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road2vba2c Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 7:56 pm (Quote)
Thank you! I didn’t even get into it because I saw such nastiness…
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Jenny Islander Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 10:38 pm (Quote)
My main problem with choosing not to vaccinate a child who can tolerate the vaccine is that he may at any time meet a child who cannot be vaccinated because he/she cannot tolerate the vaccine. It is possible to be asymptomatic and still contagious. It is possible to be symptomatic and misdiagnosed. Children who are spreading preventable diseases are extremely dangerous to children who need herd immunity in order to avoid catching those diseases. It’s impossible to tell at a glance who the vulnerable children are.
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Veronika Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 11:33 pm (Quote)
Just like it is impossible to tell at a glance which child will “tolerate” a vaccine and which child will be irreversably damaged, no? It’s a parent’s decision to vaccinate or not and not up for discussion. People who choose not to vaccinate (or to vaccinate) have usually put in the research and don’t want or need to hear why everyone else thinks they should make a different choice.
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Sara r. had this to say,
Jun 12, 2012 @ 9:30 am (Quote)
Yeah I think what scares me the most is that this doctor is used to seeing kids more than once a month in the doctor’s office for sicknesses! My daughter is 2.5 and she has been to the doctor once for a prolonged fever; that’s it. and she was in daycare for the first 15 months of her life.
And we don’t vaccinate.
Seriously, children these days are falling apart, and I feel that the multiple vaccines given are one of many causes.
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Details Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 10:01 am (Quote)
Honestly the thing that scares me most about this doctor is (if I read it right) he was willing to give both the 2 month and the 4 month shots in one day!
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sara r. Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 12:10 pm (Quote)
True, I thought about that when I read the OP also. He must have really wanted to see that child in the doctor’s office (ER?!) again.
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Lisa Reply:
June 13th, 2012 at 8:31 pm (Quote)
I think that’s what happened to ds1. The nurse said about “catching him up”. A)It’s already insane an 8lb baby gets the exact same dose as a 200lb adult & b) Like most every med out there, vaccines don’t work that way.
Ds1 is fine now, he had issues for awhile but no more vaccines seems to have allowed his body/brain to recover.
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mharry Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 12:12 pm (Quote)
I highly doubt it’s the vaccines, or else my generation would have been the first ones to bite the dust. One of the big contributing factors is overuse of germ killers and antibiotics, which has lead to lower immunities and a parade of antibiotic-resistant super bacteria. Vaccines raise your immunity levels, but no one lets their kids play in the dirt anymore. Look at Lysol commercials; “Is there a germ in your house? AHHHHHH! Smash it! Don’t let your kids touch anything! Wipe the counters 20 times a day and don’t touch the soap dispenser! Reusing the hand towel is going to kill us all!”
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SuzyHomemaker Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 1:02 pm (Quote)
HaHa!
That reminds me of an article I read maybe 2 weeks ago that was commenting on a study which showed the health benefits of letting a child play in actual dirt. Something about the good bacteria found in dirt. They also touched on the emotional and spiritual benefits to playing outdoors with nature.
The entire time I was reading this article, I just kept thinking…”when are they going to get to the part that isn’t common sense?”
It wasn’t until I had finished the article that I actually realized, “holy cow, they were serious. There are people who really don’t let their children play outside with dirt and grass?” I was just floored. I look at my childhood and how much I played outside with dirt and dandelions. I look at my 3 year old and his natural pull towards digging in the dirt when we go on walks or to the park. I can’t help but wonder, how is it that these people manage to keep their kids away from the earth beneath their feet?
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himom Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 1:16 pm (Quote)
My former SIL sent her daughters to live with us one summer when they were 10 and 11. They had *NEVER* gone barefoot in the dirt or grass. ever. They had NEVER played in a sandbox or mud puddle. Most of their *play* was video game oriented. their mom couldn’t handle any mess or dirt because she might actually have had to do something rather than sit on her a$$ and gossip with her friends.
Let’s just say that the girls’ time with us was a real eye opener for them!
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Melissa Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 4:45 pm (Quote)
There is a lot of truth to overuse of antibacterial compounds and antibiotics contributing to increased bacterial resistance (mainly because the bacteria that remain in spite of these products are the few “superbugs” in the population that have developed resistance and, once the competition is gone, the resistant bacteria are the ones that remain to pass on their genes). Exposure to dirt and certain germs (within reason) is important for exposing the immune system to certain pathogens in small amounts. It not only helps create antibodies to certain pathogens, but it essentially gives the immune system something to do. Hygiene hypothesis is a theory that postulates that, in the absence of exposure to pathogens, the immune system turns on benign antigens (e.g. antigens in food, pollen, animal dander, other common allergens) and can even turn on the body itself (i.e. autoimmune disease). People think that keeping their children in dirt and germ free environments will protect them from illness, but in reality it may be doing more harm than good.
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SculptorAlison Reply:
June 14th, 2012 at 8:15 pm (Quote)
The vaccine schedule they follow now is vastly different that the one they followed when I was growing up (I was born in 1977). The difference is staggering. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-arqv6t8VacY/T7QvOcTrpmI/AAAAAAAAD-U/EBqU4n3R0SE/s1600/VaxCDC.png
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Are you counting on no one with polio ever visiting the U.S.? China had a polio outbreak last year after being polio-free for 10 years. Herd immunity is also extremely important for curbing polio. If widespread vaccination stopped, a resurgence would be entirely possible. So really, when you say you don’t need to vaccinate your child, you’re just relying at least 95% of the country continuing to vaccinate. Your children’s low risk didn’t come out of nowhere.
International flight has been a reality for decades.
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Mharry Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 3:52 pm (Quote)
But widespread popularity of not vaccinating is a fairly new thing. Past generations saw parents waiting in long lines out into the streets for the chance to have their children vaccinated. I also don’t know if immunity-compromising illnesses/ genetic abnormalities/ and medications were so common.
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Vaccination is a choice much like breastfeeding or staying at home with the baby; it is a deeply personal decision, and a difficult one at that. It’s hard to know what’s best for your child, but only you are able to decide that. Parents should stop criticizing people who do things differently, because they don’t know why they might have chosen that particular route. The last thing new parents need is someone telling them they’re doing it wrong and are a poor parent. That’s for both sides of the debate.
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Sam Reply:
June 13th, 2012 at 6:38 am (Quote)
Not really. Breastfeeding is the default, rather than a “choice”. You can CHOOSE not to breastfeed. Same with vaxx, really. Vaxx is not the default. It’s something people can choose to do.
I think language is important, especially when it comes to owning our choices.
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I vaccinate merely because I don’t want my children to have serious complications of the vaccine preventable diseases. Most of these childhood diseases were meant to be caught in childhood and it’s more likely for serious complications to happen if the disease is contracted as a teenager or adult.
Now, in the days when there were no vaccines and the childhood diseases ran wild so to speak, most kids did catch them while they were kids. Nowadays there is a much smaller chance of my kids catching these as kids because there are much fewer outbreaks, and a higher chance of them catching the diseases as a teenager or adult.
My husband had mumps when he was 14 years old and he nearly died, got meningitis and permanent damage to one testicle, spend two miserable months in the hospital and had chronic headaches for a year afterward. I do not want any of our children to go through that. I would also not deliberately expose them by going to measles parties so they catch the disease while they are still young. So the only other choice I have is to vaccinate if I want to reduce the risk.
We don’t do flu shots and declined the rotavirus vaccine because we are healthy and our risk of serious complications to these is pretty low.
OP, this ped was really a piece of work! Never mind not respecting your authority, but saying that if you supplemented with formula the baby would be healthier? WTF?!? What is this, the 60s?
Good for you for laughing in his face, but I second the other person who said look for another doctor, because if you do take the baby in when he is sick and you don’t agree with this doctor’s treatment plan he might punish you and call CPS or do other nasty stuff like this.
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Krista Reply:
June 13th, 2012 at 8:37 pm (Quote)
For this reason we will selectively vaccinate our children before puberty for anything that is super serious in teenagers.
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Wendy Reply:
June 14th, 2012 at 3:49 am (Quote)
Now see, this argument makes no sense to me. How is getting the shots as infants and children going to prevent them from getting the diseases when they’re most dangerous- as teenagers and adults? The vaccine effectiveness wanes, which is why boosters are recommended.
If you believe that vaccines really work, then the best way to ensure your children won’t have issues from getting the diseases as teenagers and adults is to vaccinate them as teenagers, and encourage them strongly to continue getting vaccinated as adults.
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While I think that is a horrible thing to say, I also think it is a horrible thing not to vaccinate children unless they do have an allergy to something in the vaccine itself.
The doctor should never have made that comment though
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Wendy Reply:
June 14th, 2012 at 3:46 am (Quote)
Tell me, Emmalene, how is a parent to know if their child is allergic to the vaccine? Do you believe that all children will have demonstrated an allergy to a compound prior to vaccination? Like, when they’re 2 minutes old- before they force the HepB vaccine on them? Or before they’re 2 months old- when they’re given Rotavirus, DPT, HIB, Pneumococcus, and Polio?
At what point are we supposed to know our children aren’t going to have a reaction? And where is that supposed to come from?
The way I see it, when you’re not vaccinating you’re taking the chance that your child MAY be exposed to a “VPD”, and MAY develop symptoms, and MAY have a severe case, and MAY have long-lasting sequelae to it, MAYBE including death. That’s a lot of maybes, especially when you consider how much better our hygiene is that when these diseases were rampant. The charts show that these diseases were on the decline before the vaccine campaign began, and simply continued along the same slope (though some actually spiked after the introduction of their vaccine).
When you do vaccinate, you’re DEFINITELY exposing the child, in a very unnatural way, to a host of dangerous substances. Think the ingredients in vaccines aren’t dangerous? Look them up individually, and find out what the recommended exposure limit is.
Why can’t we all just be allowed to make the decisions we think are best for our families? All we can do is the best we can do, whether we believe this means fully vaccinating on schedule, fully vaccinating but spacing them out, selectively vaccinating, or not vaccinating at all?
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While I think that is a horrible thing to say, I also think it is a horrible thing not to vaccinate children unless they do have an allergy to something in the vaccine itself.
What??
you have to be exposed to find an allergic reaction… so let me get this straight, you want me to inject my son (with toxins and chemicals)
to see what will happen?!?
I hope you dont have kids (but if you do,ill inject my son with toxins if we can test if your kids can fly lol )
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kix Reply:
June 30th, 2012 at 8:31 pm (Quote)
I can’t stand that argument! Most mamas who choose not to vaccinate have put in MORE hours of research than the docs and nurses giving the shot! I know the ingredients down to the AMOUNT of aluminum, mercury and formaldahyde in the shots, how vaccination were invented, sucesses and failures! And the vax injuries!
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“I could say the same.”
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Erika Reply:
June 12th, 2012 at 6:02 am Erika(Quote)
Zing!
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