Posted by My OB said WHAT?!?.
May
21
Posted by My OB said WHAT?!?.
“Just Let Her Cry. All Night If You Have To…”
“Just let her cry. All night if you have to. Once she sleeps through the night, she will start to nap properly.” – Pediatrician to mother concerned about her 9 month old’s sleep patterns.
There are 94 comments to this post.
the Deranged Housewife had this to say,
May 21, 2012 @ 5:47 am (Quote)
All night? Seriously?!
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Never take parenting advice from Dr. First of all they aren’t home with their own children enough to have a clue. Secondly for those parents who ask his advice only the one who liked the advice will ever give him feedback. The ones who think he is a jerk will either cross their fingers and hope the topic never comes up again or change doctors. Many of us avoid asking for advice and when it is given unaksed we smile and nod and do whatever the heck we want. The result: the doctor thinks he has the answers to everything because all he ever hears is thank you.
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Because it’s a well known fact that ALL babies should sleep through the night by 9 months (or whatever age). Also, all babies weigh 7 lbs, are born at exactly 40 weeks, after 12 hours of labor during which the mother’s cervix dilates at the precise rate of 1 cm/hour.
About how it’s not ok to let a baby of any age scream all night long, yeah, not even gonna go there… Let’s just say I’m reading Elizabeth Pantley right now to try to help my own 9 month old sleep better, and her and I have a few objections to that 
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road2vba2c had this to say,
May 21, 2012 @ 6:05 am (Quote)
How horrible! I hope mama set the doctor straight! I couldn’t ever let my baby CIO!
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Details Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 11:09 am (Quote)
Even with CIO isn’t there a time limit?
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road2vba2c Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 12:53 pm (Quote)
Some older CIO methods say to let baby cry all night. I think when the AAP came out against BabyWise was when they changed their tune, but still telling parents to let them cry 5-30 minutes at a time, and the only comfort at max is to be going in there, laying baby down again, patting baby’s back, but NEVER picking baby up. Because that would be wrong…
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Jane Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 2:15 pm (Quote)
I know someone who told me about a guy who, when his newborn came home from the hospital, he took it away from the mother and said, “*I* need my sleep!” and locked the baby in a bedroom way on the other side of the house so they couldn’t hear the baby scream.
So, um, no, some CIO proponents didn’t set time limits.
(That newborn would now be older than I am, btw, so this isn’t recent.)
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C had this to say,
May 21, 2012 @ 6:46 am (Quote)
OP, my son is almost 9 months old and getting up again at night after sleeping beautifully for a few months. My husband and I miss sleep, but not enough to just let him cry. He is going through a growth spurt and is getting hungry at night. We just feed him and rock him back to sleep. He is also learning to walk and falls frequently. When he has a fall that makes him cry during the day I know he will have a nightmare or two that night. I can’t imagine following this advice not to comfort and feed. Clearly the fact that this comment is posted here means you are following your instincts to care for your little one.
OP, my son is almost 9 months old and getting up again at night after sleeping beautifully for a few months. My husband and I miss sleep, but not enough to just let him cry. He is going through a growth spurt and is getting hungry at night. We just feed him and rock him back to sleep. He is also learning to walk and falls frequently. When he has a fall that makes him cry during the day I know he will have a nightmare or two that night. I can’t imagine following this advice not to comfort and feed. Clearly the fact that this comment is posted here means you are following your instincts to care for your little one.
As a new mom I get all kinds of advice. One that stands out a mom of a teen told me about her daughter’s sleep pattern when she was this age. She said that she was not the best sleeper, making light of a really difficult period for her family. In desperation one night she let her cry for more than an hour. Sitting awake in her bed trying to be strong and let her cry it out. When she finally did go check on her, her daughter and her crib were covered in vomit and the baby was quite ill. Her daughter heard her telling me about it and said it was the worst night of her life, and that she still has nightmares about it. The mom wasn’t aware that she remembered that night, and said that made it even worse.
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Amy Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 6:38 am (Quote)
When my sister was a few months old, My mother was physically restrained by some ‘friends’ trying to get her to CIO. After a few minutes my mother literally pushed them off and ran in to find my sister covered in vomit, too.
My mother never CIO with my sister or me. My sister slept through the night around 2, I did around 3 months (I’ve always liked to sleep). My 20 month old still wakes regularly. It’s frustrating but CIO is not an option.
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Someone help me out here, because I’m experiencing an attack of Teh Stupidz: if the baby is crying all night, then how exactly is the baby sleeping all night?
And the next night, when the baby expects that being in the crib means nine hours of hunger, discomfort and loneliness…the doctor expects the baby to sleep peacefully with those associations?
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SuzyHomemaker Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 12:47 am (Quote)
This was the first thought that came to my mind as well. How is the baby sleeping all night, if the baby is in fact crying all night. Parenting methods aside, this statement lacks basic common sense and logic.
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Erica Douglas had this to say,
May 21, 2012 @ 8:10 am (Quote)
Oh my goodness, advice like this makes ME want to cry! That poor baby, left to cry all night!
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Courtney had this to say,
May 21, 2012 @ 8:51 am (Quote)
My mom tells the story of when I was around this age and had just started walking. I hadn’t been sleeping well and dr tells my parents a 9 mo old should learn to sleep through the night. They decide one night to follow advise and let me cry. Couldn’t bear it and went to check on me. I had attempted to climb out of my crib and had made it except for one foot. My parents found be dangling head down by the ankle. Never even thiuggt to let me cry it out again!
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Jenny Islander Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 9:29 am (Quote)
The adversarial mindset behind “let ‘em cry, that’ll larn ‘em” presumes that babies never, ever get their feet jammed into the crib slats, wake up wet, get hungry because they are growing so fast, get cold and lack the brainpower to burrow under the blanket they kicked off, get scared of the shadows, have nightmares, find a spider in bed with them . . . no, it’s all that wretched baby being sooooooo selfish when he should KNOW that OUR SLEEP is IMPORTANT. What a load of crap to heap on a helpless human being. People who try that with bedridden, incapacitated 90-year-olds go to jail!
As for learning not to cry: Dr. Sears tells the story of going to the home of people who had “sleep trained” their baby and said proudly that she “slept through the night.” The parents chatted happily after dinner. The baby cried and cried in the nursery. The parents had trained themselves to tune out the baby’s only way to call for help. No thanks!
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Knitted in the Womb Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 10:33 am (Quote)
I’ve had exactly that experience of being in the home of a couple who had “sleep trained” their baby, and uncomfortably listening to the baby cry for 20 minutes while the parents seemed oblivious. I also had a friend who told of how she spent the night at someone’s house who had sleep trained, and heard the baby crying off and on all night. In the morning she attempted to be sympathetic towards the parents with a comment like “I guess you had a rough night last night, so sorry…” and they had no clue what she was talking about.
When my firstborn was 2 and my second daughter was 6 months old, my family moved into a “new” house–built in the late 1940′s and in need of much renovation. We opted to sleep all of us in one large bedroom while we worked on fixing up the other bedrooms. My hubby and I have had an agreement that I tend to the needs of the nursing baby at night, and he tends to the other children. Even sleeping in the same room with our children, we quickly got to where I would only hear our younger daughter at night, and my hubby would only hear our older daughter.
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MindieRae Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 5:43 pm (Quote)
My 21 month old son is still in his crib and over the past 2 months he has started sticking his legs through the slats of his crib, and his knees get stuck and at least 3 times now he has gotten very stuck where I have had to pull the slats open and pull him out. So yes this does happen and is a perfect reason to not CIO…
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We were told to CIO it out too. What we did was quit forcing our sleep pattern on our kid and learn to adapt to his needs. We all have been getting 7-8 hrs of sleep a night now since he was born and he’s two.
It’s a bit of an odd schedule but it works for us.
It also helps we co-sleep.
I’ve also heard of babies choking on their vomit from being left to cry. One was the child went quiet so they assumed she had finally fallen asleep.. go in next morning and she’s dead.
Not a chance I’d ever take.
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My daughter has never been a good sleeper until the last 2 weeks or so. It was really wierd to adjust to her not waking up at night; I would get up and check on her and sometimes wake her up on accident. But I am getting used to it now 
I may ignore a little wimper when I lay her down, but full on crying? If I don’t care for my child who will? I couldn’t even imagine neglecting my child like that… well I could, I have dealt with ppd and my husband filled in the gaps beautifully, but the guilt of it would have made that worse if she hadn’t been cared for, I think.
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I don’t think the doctor is advocating child neglect. Most people who do CIO check on the baby when the baby begins crying to ensure their is no real need (IE no wet diaper, baby eating spiders in the crib, hunger..etc). After that you stick your head in every hour or so if their still crying (or when they suddenly stop) to make sure things are still okay. There are books on it just like AP. My parents did it to me, it teaches independence and self comfort skills.
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Details Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 11:17 am (Quote)
I think the doctor IS advocating child neglect. That is exactly what it sounds like to me. He didn’t recommend a book with clear time limits or anything. He just declared that if you ignore them it will all resolve itself.
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Rebecca Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 12:44 pm (Quote)
There are quite a few studies that show the practice of CIO does not teach independence or self comfort, but the opposite. The children just learn not to trust people who are supposed to care for them. I’m away from home (where the links are) or I’d post studies.
Yes, many of us either had CIO used on us as children or used it on our own children, and in individual cases it may appear to have turned out well. But children are not the result of just one parenting choice- all the different choices we (and our parents) make contribute to the child.
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Rebecca Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 12:46 pm (Quote)
BTW, advocates of sleep training/extintion/cry it out usually say *FIVE MINUTES* of crying, not an hour. Can you imagine the physiological damage an hour of screaming and crying does? If nothing else there’s quite a bit of fluid loss.
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Someone Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 5:02 pm (Quote)
Really? I’ve never heard of a healthy infant hollering it’s self to death. Toddlers who are more strong willed will throw up and sometimes turn blue from crying, but an infant who is not getting anything out of it is not going to cry until it hurts it’s self.
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C.Pratt Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 8:14 pm (Quote)
Well, 2 things… In this thread I read a story of a child dying due to choking on throwup in a frenzied cry. Secondly, there is such a thing as damage, even severe damage, before death occures. Do you think that babies cry just to cry? There is something they need. Just because the parent can’t figure it out is no reason to treat the child like a swindling criminal! “Oh, my baby didn’t die”? Setting the bar pretty low here…
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Someone Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 8:35 pm (Quote)
This has an n=1, it would be similar to me saying I heard of a perfectly healthy baby that died because mom went post-date. It wouldn’t work on any thread were people are complaining about induction now would it?
Secondarily what kind of terrible damage is a baby going to have from crying that leaves no physical signs? Sick babies have symptoms other then crying.
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Rebecca Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 1:39 pm (Quote)
I started out with physiological damage, and I didn’t say anything about death. As tragic as any CIO related deaths are, I’ve no doubt they’re outliers.
However, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t damage- if even mild damage. I’m thirsty (which is a sign of dehydration) after about fiteen minutes of heavy crying (I had a recent death in the family, so recent experience) If I’m yelling for more than a few minutes continuously, my throat is sore. Are these permanent conditions? No, but they are damage. If baby was dehydrated for any other reason, or suffering from a sore throat, most parents, including CIO advocates would cuddle along with treating the illness/injury. Why is it different because the cause was emotional rather than physical?
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Catherine Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 1:02 pm (Quote)
So, wanting to be held isn’t a real need?
And anyone who only checks on a crying infant every HOUR OR SO is practicing child neglect.
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Kristy Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 1:22 pm (Quote)
Exactly! I always tell people that if I was crying myself to sleep and my husband ignored me because he had decided I didn’t *really* need anything… it would not be a pretty sight.
How can an *infant’s* emotional needs be worth less??
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Someone Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 4:59 pm (Quote)
Needing to be held is a real, but not urgent need. All babies need touch, but unless this child is not being touch during the day it will not suffer from having to CIO at night.
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Christie Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 5:51 pm (Quote)
im sorry but whats the difference between night and day? are we suddenly not this childs parent, do we suddenly not need to ensure their needs are met just because the sun has gone down. how would you feel if during the day you were the apple of someones eye, then at some preplanned time you are shut in a dark room with no idea whats going on, you are not yet old enough to understand object constancy, so what you cant see doesnt exist, for all you know you are alone in the world, so you scream, you are terrified, you have lost everything you know, after a while you give up your brain shuts down and you fall into a fitful sleep. babies can and do suffer from depression, children today have serious trust issues, marriages dont last anymore, parents dont bond with their children any more, why do you think that is? because essentially every night since some made up age in their most vulnerable state they are abandoned, as an adult we can rationalise, we know that at night we go to sleep, a child cannot, they rely on us. so yes “it” will suffer
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C.Pratt Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 8:16 pm (Quote)
You noticed the “it” there too, huh? Is this a troll we are dealing with?
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Someone Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 8:27 pm (Quote)
It is our languages only gender neutral pronoun. It is simply referring to a general child without making a specific gender. Nothing more.
As for the night and day thing, I’m not saying parents cease to be so at night. If their baby is crying because it’s wet, change the diaper. Take care of their needs if you can find any. Most of the disorders of attachment however come from extreme deprivation, a child who is never touched. A child who is not getting cuddled at the time it demands is different then a child who is never cuddled and loved. The child receives the love and affection it needs during the day will not develop things like failure to thrive most likely or sever dis-attachment disorder.
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Aunt4God Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 10:06 pm (Quote)
NOT TRUE!!!! I know for a fact that my Bio-father would leave me in my crib at night (and sometimes during the day) to cry and scream because he did not know how to handle an infant. My aunt that we were living with would come get me during the day and cuddle me and love on me, but couldn’t do that at night because I was in his room. I still deal with fears of dark/night, feelings of abandonment, and whenever I talked to him or my bio-sister on the phone, I get a very strange feeling of ….it’s almost like emptiness that I can’t shake for a long time. I still struggle with things like telling people I love them. Most of this neglect happened at night, not during the day! I could go on, but I won’t..suffice it to say, it leaves more of an impact than you’re giving it credit!
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Someone Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 5:28 am (Quote)
And my parents let me CIO at night when I was screaming for no good reason. I turned out fine and have no trouble telling people I love them. Just because you have emotional problems does not mean that CIO at night is should not be used. I’m sorry that you were neglected by a father who from your own admission was not ready to parent. However, that doesn’t mean that CIO is necessarily wrong. It just like bed-sharing or any other number of options in child sleeping arrangements. If done right it’s a valid choice and in most cases it works just as well as any other.
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Toni Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 9:50 am (Quote)
“I turned out fine and have no trouble telling people I love them. ”
Really? You think it is fine to refer to children as “it”, to beat them if they wake at night (or step out of line in any fashion), and you don’t want better for you kids (as most sane people do), you want to eek by with the minimum your parents offered you. You plan on (by your own admission) raising your kids by mindlessly following what your parents did to you, even if it has been proven harmful. That doesn’t sound like a person who turned out “fine”. It sounds like someone who has some issues.
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Someone Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 1:37 pm (Quote)
Okay first of all I never said beat a child, I would never defend child abuse big differences in giving physical punishment and beating a kid. Was I given licks as a child absolutely when I earned it, was I beaten never. Nor will my children be beaten if I have anything to do with it. I want better for my kids in a lot of things. Discipline is not one of them because I think my parents did a good job and turned out a pretty good kid. I don’t like what I see when I meet a lot of kids raised by AP. I see kids talking back to to their mothers and all sorts of other things. I make decisions based on outcomes. I’m a productive adult who gets along well with others and knows how to submit when needed. Why would I want children who are any less?
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Toni Reply:
May 23rd, 2012 at 2:08 am (Quote)
You were smacked for getting out of bed at 16 months old. That’s abusive sweetie. A toddler still lacks the verbal skills to adequately tell his/her parents what is wrong. Even a preschooler, in the middle of the night, may have difficulty voicing what the trouble is. You don’t deserve to be hit, in any fashion, simply because you had a bad dream, or were too hot or too cold, or thirsty. There are circumstances where I will spank my kids. But not for waking up at night.
How do you know a specific back-talking child is “raised by AP” in the first place? Do they wear scarlet “AP”s? Again, you do not yet have kids (and from your comments, it shows). I’m not inclined to automatically dismiss what a childless/childfree person has to say about parenting philosophies, but I do expect someone who doesn’t have kids to show a modicum of humility about the topic. Don’t you think, maybe, it’s possible that you don’t have all the answers?
Unless your parents really did a number on you… then you might think you have all the answers…
Aunt4God Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 9:52 am (Quote)
You said “The child receives the love and affection it needs during the day will not develop things like failure to thrive most likely or sever dis-attachment disorder” and I was responding to that. It’s not true! CIO is totally different than what this submission is about, but that’s not even what was done to me. I was left to cry, by myself, for as long as I was going to cry. It wasn’t “screaming for no good reason” and most children at night aren’t going to literally scream for no good reason. A few minutes of crying and whimpering while falling asleep can be natural, and I remember doing that with no problems. That’s why most kids have a blanket or teddy or something as a comfort object. My mama tells me that it took almost a year after they got me for me to trust my daddy and to go to him by my choice. That speaks to something right there. IMO, when people advocate CIO, they aren’t talking about a few minutes of crying and whimpering, they are talking about letting them stay in the crib crying, no matter what, and that’s just plain cruel and wrong. It does affect the child, even if they get all the cuddles and affection they want during the day, and that is what I was talking about. This is also my last post on it…it’s very hard to talk about. You can take it or leave it, and I know I’m never going to make a difference in what you believe.
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Someone Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 1:31 pm (Quote)
I thank you for talking about something that is very hard for you to speak on. You seem to have a lot of passion on this subject, and I enjoy talking to other people that have passion on a subject no matter what their view point is. I still disagree with you, but I wanted to thank you for taking the time to talk to me about this issue.
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Toni Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 2:25 am (Quote)
“If their baby is crying because it’s wet, change the diaper. Take care of their needs if you can find any.”
But if you are only checking every hour “or so”, how do you know they don’t need anything? You may very well be making that kid wallow in a crap filled diaper for 45+ minutes while you wait for the “appropriate time” to be a parent. (pssst – “parent” is a verb too).
And if we are talking about a bf baby, well, skipping feedings, especially at night, is the number one way to ensure low milk production and an early end to nursing, possibly failure to thrive (that’s why Babywise came under admonishment). At the very least the baby needs to feel safe and comforted. You may not view that as a “need”; will the baby DIE if he/she (how hard is it to type 4 extra characters, btw, if it avoids referring to children as lawn furniture? “it”? wow) is left to cry for a few minutes, or more, no. But that doesn’t mean it is GOOD for them, or that it teaches them squat; well, besides the obvious, that they aren’t important/valuable enough for their parents to take care of them. In fact, many would (and do) argue that *safety* is a need. Not a primary one like food, water, and oxygen, but it is a need nonetheless. People (and babies, contrary to what you may think, are people) have a psychological need to feel safe. High stress levels aren’t good for anyone, including children. IIRC there was a study done showing increased cortisol levels in babies left to CIO after only 20 minutes (nowhere close to the hour “or so” you are advocating). Here:
http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/fussy-baby/science-says-excessive-crying-could-be-harmful
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998/04.09/ChildrenNeedTou.html
Now, if you want to set the bar so low for yourself that anything short of FTT and/or severe detachment disorder is success, have at it. But don’t act as though you are doing something beneficial for your child or tell others that they ought to do it to.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if you want convenience, get a goldfish.
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Colleen Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 6:11 pm (Quote)
‘It’ is not our language’s only gender neutral pronoun. For centuries the singular ‘they’ has also been acceptable, and in more recent years wordsmiths have been crafting more neutral pronoun options such as ‘ze’ and ‘hir’. All of these are preferable to ‘it’ since ‘it’ has so many dehumanizing connotations.
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Catherine Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 8:15 pm (Quote)
I absolutely disagree that needing to feel safe and loved is not an urgent need for an infant. Additionally, numerous studies have shown that the type of “crying it out” you describe in your original comment is dangerous and detrimental to both the physical and emotional health and development of infants.
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Someone Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 8:37 pm (Quote)
It’s been a while since I brushed up on CIO they may have changed the time periods for checks, an hour is what I know it practiced here. The idea I was trying to get across is even if the doctor said let him/her holler all night it doesn’t necessarily mean they meant without some supervision. That you just leave the baby cry and that’s that.
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Toni Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 9:46 am (Quote)
You don’t even have kids. The CIO you have referred to was practiced a generation ago (more that “a while”). Even Dr Spock has reversed his position on CIO. Maybe crack a book before trying to pass yourself off as knowing anything.
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Someone Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 1:42 pm (Quote)
I’m basing it off what I was raised with and what I know is common around were I live. Parenting practices aren’t mathematics, different things are common to different regions. If I cracked 10 books I would find 10 answers. I would rather base things off reality then what a particular author said (since that is the number of authors that agree with each other).
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Toni Reply:
May 23rd, 2012 at 2:13 am (Quote)
So you admit you have no education on parenting or parenting philosophies, no education on early childhood development, and are basing you opinions on anecdotes and stories (which may or may not be terribly accurate). Okay then, At least you should know enough to know what you don’t know
And funny, you just said you see lots of brats around you, but what is “common around where (you) live” is letting kids CIO for hours. Hmmm. Maybe you’re on to something. Not sure why you haven’t connected the dots on your own.
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Jane Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 2:12 pm (Quote)
Children don’t learn independence by being isolated. They just learn no one will help them when they need it. That’s also called “despair.”
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Lisa Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 5:44 pm (Quote)
I read a book by a child psychiatrist about one of his patients, a teenager, who had killed several women and seemed to not have any empathy toward the families he had just devastated. The teen had an older brother who was a nice, well-adjusted boy who had no homicidal tendencies. So what was it that made the boys so different? Turns out the older boy had been held and comforted when he cried as a child. When the mother had two (and no help with the second child since they had moved to an area with no family), she kept up her normal routine with her first, but often left the younger one home alone. So he would cry and cry and not get the holding and comforting the first son had. He eventually learned (as an infant) that crying wouldn’t help him and stopped crying. He didn’t have the associations and cues that you’re supposed to get by being held and comforted when you cry. Now, I’m not saying that all children are going to turn into homicidal murderers because their parents let them cry all night, but it does affect a child’s trust very much.
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Jane Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 5:56 pm (Quote)
That’s really extreme. I don’t think CIO equates to neglect (whereas leaving a young boy home alone certainly does) and in the story you cite, the mother throws in favoritism to boot.
But it does raise the question of how hard it is to *create* an attachment disorder in a child. Children who are never held definitely develop disordered attachment mechanisms, whereas I don’t know of an equivalent in the other direction (children who develop disorders because they’re held as often as they want to be.) Why stress the child’s emotional growth by denying the child access to comfort and food just because it’s dark?
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We do sleep training (The Baby Whisperer Method) and she says to NEVER let them CIO. It breaks trust between baby and parents. You help them to learn to sleep on their own by comforting, patting, rocking, holding, but NEVER EVER crying for more than 5-10 minutes.
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Veronica had this to say,
May 21, 2012 @ 2:59 pm (Quote)
This is mine!
We never saw the doc again.
I wasnt looking for advice, but wanting the doc to see if there might have been a medical reason behind it. When she said this, i said very sarcastically yeah, right that sounds like a good idea!
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Christie Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 6:10 pm (Quote)
good on you! when i saw a doctor about my troubles (bub was also 9 months old funnily enough) she refered us to a sleep center where they taught me ways to help him, he was waking through the night wanting to be fed to sleep every hour or so, he was about 12 months when we went for a week stay, we had one night of him screaming to be fed to sleep but we stayed with him patted and cuddled and only left once when i needed to clear my head, then after that he started sleeping, and now he just goes to bed and sleeps 12 hours. i really hope this “leave them cry” way of thinking dies out soon
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It’s idiots like this doctor, and the horror stories quoted above, that make people associate letting a baby cry once in awhile with child abuse. I allow my daughter to cry it out, and I would be horrified if a doctor told me this! Most parents who allow baby to cry do not just lock baby in a room all night!!
My daughter is 15 months old and very mature mentally for her age, very aware of her surroundings compared to her peers, and we treat her as such, a younger baby would be treated differently to her, things change as babies grow. I go in when she cries, if I know she is having a growth spurt or teething or whatever I will deal with those problems by feeding, giving medicine, etc, and usually she will go back to sleep afterwards with just a few settling wimpers. If she just wants comforting I will comfort her, tuck her back in, pat her back and stay with her a while, sometimes she falls asleep once she knows I’m there, other times she wants to get up and play (this happens most of the time when she wakes up hearing guests over or music playing) then she needs to learn I can’t comfort her all night, she needs to sleep whether she wants to or not, she can’t be a part of late night activities just because she wants to be, and I leave her alone once I am convinced that she just wants to be up and part of the action or just dosen’t want to sleep. I do not just leave her to scream after that, if she becomes hysterical and is not having a temper tantrum cry I will assume something I don’t know about is wrong and get her up properly for a comfort bottle or to come out and sit on my lap or whatever I feel she needs until she calms down, perhaps falls asleep in my arms. If she has a tantrum I wait until the cries settle from anger to sadness and then go in and comfort her again (I won’t reward angry tantrum screamng but I will comfort her regarding her emotions once she calms down. This is usually caused by grumpy overtiredness). More often than not what I actually hear from her is a tired, ‘I don’t want to sleep’ cry that lasts 5 or 10 minutes before she falls back asleep on her own. As soon as she stops crying I go in and check on her, make sure she has fallen asleep and is not hurt, throwing up, whatever. I don’t sleep until I know she is sleeping, I NEVER go to sleep while she is crying.
It’s about listening to your baby, knowing the difference between an angry cry, an ‘I need you’ cry, a whiney ‘I don’t want to sleep’ cry, an ‘I had a nightmare’ cry, etc. It’s about letting baby know that, once her needs are taken care of, she needs to sleep whether she wants to or not. It’s about being aware of her needs, including her need for guidance and sleep as she is too young to make her own decisions and would happily not sleep at all if I allowed her to.
But it needs to be balanced. Our family has been in turmoil the past few months and she has begun waking for comfort because she dosen’t feel as secure as usual, so she has been getting a regular middle of the night comfort bottle and cuddles, and allowed to fall asleep in my arms in bed before being transfered back to the cot. She only wakes up when she needs it, we regularly have full night sleeps again now because she feels safe again, so I know when she does wake it is not a habit or a desire to play, I can identify the reason and deal with it. If she were waking every night because she thought a nighttime bottle sounds like a good idea but didn’t have a need, it would be a different matter, because waking the house up at night because you want them to cater to your WANTS is a selfish and unkind behaviour, and one that shouldnt be encouraged. I wouldn’t give her everything she WANTS during the day, that would be bad parenting since often what she wants is dangerous and unhealthy fr her. So why should I cater to her WANTS at night any differently? Parents need to know the difference.
Parents need to recognise differences and know their babies well enough to know what they’re trying to tell you, so many mums don’t know their kids that well. Once you can communicate through gestures and cries it’s easy to make it situational, for example right now she believes she dosen’t need a nap because they’re no fun, so I set her in her cot at naptime and leave her for a half hour (while listening and checking if she goes silent and all the stuff shown above) and she is now learning she has to take a nap during that time, fun or not, because I know she needs the sleep and I know what’s best for her. But at the very same time, I’m about to leave for a few days, and have left instructions not to allow her to cry it out at all during the night because she is going to want extra comfort with mummy not being here for the first time in her life, and chances are most, if not all, of her cries will be for a NEED to feel safe with mummy gone.
If you still think what I do is abusive then fine, I probably think your pareting style is abusive too, I think spoiling a child and catering to their every whim is abusive because it sets them up for failure in the real world, the world will not cater to their every whim and sometimes they just need to do things they don’t want to do because they just have to. Toddler dosen’t want a nap because it’s no fun? Well I don’t want to clean the dishes cause it’s no fun, but I have to because it’s good for me and good for my family, just like sleep is for her. In the same token, if I am sick no one is going to get upset at me for not doing the dishes, and the same should apply to her, she deserves comfort when sick. Is it really so bad to teach your child that she can’t always get what she wants, but that you listen to her and will give her everything she needs?
Again, I’ll say though, this doctor is an idiot, and leaving her to scream all night is certainly abusive. It’s people like this that give people like me such a horrible name and image.
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Someone Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 5:34 am (Quote)
At least someone understands that you should not teach a child that you are going to cater to it’s every whimper. You sound like an excellent mom to me.
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Toni Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 7:18 am (Quote)
@Someone: What you fail to recognize (obviously on purpose) is that there is a marked difference between “catering to (a child’s) every whimper” and leaving said child to scream for hours on end. You also seem to fail to recognize that independence is not achieved overnight, or even in the child’s first year of life. Forced independence is not independence at all; quite the contrary – if the child gives up it is not because he/she is “independent” it is because you have broken his/her will. That’s called despair.
@abba: You make a couple valid points that Someone obviously missed. First, you must do what is age appropriate, and developmentally appropriate for your child. IOW, what is okay for a 15 month old might be wildly inappropriate for a 9 month old. You seem to recognize this. Not everyone (or someone, as the case may be) seems to.
Second, there is a difference between letting a child “fuss” for a little while and leaving a child to cry/scream for hours. Sure, any transition will involve adjustment and that adjustment may involve some tears. Sure, when I’m night-weaning my kids around 15-18 months, they will fuss/cry. In my arms. While I soothe them in other ways. Sure, when they are transitioning from cosleeping to their own beds (between 18 mos and 2 years) there will inevitably be some tears. Sure, there will be night wakings for different reasons for the first several years. But with patience and compassion, and lots of reassurance, they get through it. Like you, I wouldn’t dream of leaving them to fuss/cry for more than 15-20 minutes, and would certainly attend to them right away if the crying gets panicky or devolves into screaming. It’s really a matter of common sense
What I disagree with is the following:
“It’s about being aware of her needs, including her need for guidance as she is too young to make her own decisions and would happily not sleep at all if I allowed her to.”
This all or nothing attitude is off-putting to me. Sure, without your guidance, she might not sleep as long as you want her to at a stretch, or at the times that are most convenient for you. However, she would sleep. I only point it out because a version of this argument is used against co-sleeping – if you let them sleep in your bed (at all) they will NEVER learn to sleep by themselves. It’s a crock. I’ve successfully transitioned two co-sleepers to excellent solo-sleepers. I did it when they were ready and I did it compassionately without making anybody CIO for hours and hours. And while you may be able to tailor your child’s sleeping habits to fit your preferences *to a point*, the fact is when and how long they sleep is largely determined by things that are beyond your control. You seem to be suggesting here that a (“good”) parent can “make” the child sleep. This is not so, and only contributes to mommy guilt when a mother finds herself with a higher needs child or one who just naturally doesn’t sleep 12 hours a night at 6 months old. Yes you can encourage. No, you cannot control.
“…because waking the house up at night because you want them to cater to your WANTS is a selfish and unkind behaviour, and one that shouldnt be encouraged.”
Where we differ here is in the idea that an infant, or very young toddler, is capable of the level of empathy you suggest they should have. Should we teach our children to think of others? Of course. But we need to keep in mind what is developmentally possible (I don’t think a toddler is capable of understanding that his/her nighttime wakings disturb you). And we need to keep in mind that empathy is largely learned behavior and the best way to teach empathy is to model it. While you seem to be suggesting that ignoring a child’s needs will somehow teach him to be more considerate, I think the opposite is true. Compassionately and consistently responding to his/her needs is the best way to teach the child to value others. After all, if you don’t feel valued yourself, how can you see any value in anyone else?
“ If you still think what I do is abusive then fine, I probably think your pareting style is abusive too, I think spoiling a child and catering to their every whim is abusive…”
No I don’t think what you are describing here is “abusive”. I don’t think what works for your 15 month old will work for every 15 month old (much less a younger infant), and I might be uncomfortable with some of the philosophies you have (as described above). But what you describe here is hardly abuse. I wonder why you are getting so defensive here, tho. A more responsive nighttime parenting style is not “abuse” either. Of course, we may just have to agree to disagree about whether or not an infant can be “spoiled” and how best to teach empathy. I think you go a bit off the deep end (not unlike Someone) by making the assumption that those of us to respond quickly, patiently, and compassionately to our children’s nighttime needs are somehow “indulgent” parents. We’re not talking about indulging a child who is throwing a fit over a candy bar. We are talking about responding to a child’s cries at night. With this statement, you have crossed over into Someone’s territory – going from what is rational and logical to just trying to defend yourself by accusing those who do things differently of “spoiling” their kids. You seem to understand that leaving a child to cry all night is abusive. Maybe have some faith that the rest of us can see a difference between what the doc in the quote is advocating and gentle sleep training.
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Someone Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 8:33 am (Quote)
What you fail to recognize (obviously on purpose) is that 99% of the time the baby left to CIO is not going to cry past a few hours unless it’s head is on fire! The doctor was trying to teach what he probably saw as an overly permissive parents that it was okay if she didn’t grab the baby every time it cried. If it’s not got a reason to cry let it holler.
I believe in the child rearing methods I do because it was the way I was raised. Like most people when I have children I figure most of what they will receive will be what I remember growing up and what I have been told by my parents about myself (if it worked for me and my siblings it should work my kids). I was about 16 months when I first decided to scream at night for no good reason. My parents response leave me upstairs and move downstairs so I would sleep. When I was old enough to walk and get downstairs. Give a few licks then return to crib. Repeat until child no longer gets out of bed. I do believe that way to many parents are too permissive these days. Freaking out every time the baby whimpers. Every time I go out today I see children running around acting in ways that would have gotten my my hide tanned when I was a kid. It doesn’t start when their 3 or even 2 it starts much younger with moms and dads to afraid to let the LO cry themselves to sleep (yes I’ve done it and not dead or horribly scared, yes it’s totally possible even for a very small baby if they are crying out of no real need). The fact of the matter is babies sometimes cry just because they can, just to hear the noise.
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Toni Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 9:14 am (Quote)
“What you fail to recognize (obviously on purpose) is that 99% of the time the baby left to CIO is not going to cry past a few hours unless it’s head is on fire!”
Proof please. I know when I attempted the CIO method with my first, she did in fact scream for hours on end. For three nights in a row. Before I put an end to the madness (and listened to my instincts). I also, in that time realized that I was waking with horrible engorgement in the morning (once she ddi pass out (I can’t call it falling asleep) she was exhausted and proceded to sleep through the next two fedings) and had I kept it up my supply likely would have dropped to a point where continuing bfing would not have been possible. Of course, given your predaliction to doing what your parents did, mindlessly and without question, I must assume you will bottle feed (as your mother most likely did) so you won’t be concerned with this…
“The doctor was trying to teach what he probably saw as an overly permissive parents that it was okay if she didn’t grab the baby every time it cried.”
It is not a pediatrician’s place to decide (in the course of a 15 min well baby check up, at that) whether parents are “permissive” or not. Much less give outdated, potentially harmful advice on something that is outside their scope of practice. If the child is healthy (and according to the OP the child was, in fact, healthy) then the pediatrician needs to keep his/her opinions of different parenting philosophies to him/herself.
“If it’s not got a reason to cry let it holler. ”
It? Wow. Might I suggest a dog? Maybe a goldfish… Oh wait, it is illegal to neglect your pets too.
“I believe in the child rearing methods I do because it was the way I was raised.”
Yes. And you seem like a very well adjusted, caring individual who understands that small children are people too and shouldn’t be referred to as objects. Oh, wait, scratch that. Yikes.
“when I have children ”
Well, that kinda says it all Most “experts” on children have one thing in common. They don’t have any. ROFL.
“Give a few licks then return to crib.”
I’m sorry your parents beat you for waking up at night as a helpless toddler 
FWIW I am not opposed to spanking, per se, but the punishment must fit the crime. Hitting a child for waking up is abuse. It sure seems to explain a thing or two in your case though…
“Every time I go out today I see children running around acting in ways that would have gotten my my hide tanned when I was a kid.”
How do you know those children weren’t left to CIO? I contend many of them were (seeing as it is still a pretty common practice). Are there brats out there? Sure. Are there overly permissive parents out there? Sure. Responding to an infant’s cries at night does not a permissive parent make. That’s where your logic crumbles.
The permissive parent does what is easiest for him/herself – lock the kid in the room, smack the tar out of him if he dares to interrupt Letterman, ignore the child’s needs, and later, the child himself; in general take the path of least resistance. The responsive parent does what is harder for him/herself – attend to the child’s needs, make sure the child is ok, practice maturity and self control and don’t beat your kid like a dog (hell, animal cruelty is illegal too) just because he isn’t acting the way you want him to. It is more work in the immediate, but the benefit is clear. The permissive/neglectful/abusive parent acts selfishly, doing what benefits him/her in the short run. The responsive parent does what is best for the child, even if that means having to use patience and self control (and self sacrifice) to teach the child. That is the fundamental difference between *discipline* and punishment.
“The fact of the matter is babies sometimes cry just because they can, just to hear the noise.”
Oh, funny, I thought the tale went that they are “exercising their lungs” lol. I suppose your kids will be fed corn syrup and evap milk (formula is soooo new age, and bfing is only for dirty, poor, uneducated women), on a strict schedule, of course; you will put them to sleep on their stomachs (so they don’t aspirate); you’ll be sure to rub their gums with whiskey when they are teething; you won’t be bothered with car seats; and of course you won’t be opposed to anyone smoking in your house while your baby is present. Cuz, you know, that’s the way it was done when we were kids and we’re all just fine (eyeroll).
If you want to raise your kids (you know, the ones you don’t have yet *snicker*) with outdated, potentially harmful parenting philosophies, have at it. But don’t act like you are doing something intelligent, or beneficial, by ignoring the recommendations that are based on science. You are taking risks with your children. Of course, I have a feeling, unless your parents managed to turn you into a sociopath with all their late night beatings, once you actually have kids of your own you will want what is best for them, not what is easiest for yourself, or even what is just “good enough”. Until then, why is someone without kids on a website that is dedicated to expectant women/families or those who have already had children?
I think the troll accusation in an earlier post was correct…
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Someone Reply:
May 23rd, 2012 at 2:56 am (Quote)
I think you are thinking I am much older then I am. Although some of those things are what I’m used to (whiskey on gums), some of those things (smoking around a baby and face down were) considered grounds to take a baby by the time I was born.
I have two reasons for being here:
The first is I training to work in maternal healthcare, I wanted to get a feel for what my future patients might be like.
The second is honestly I value the opinions I receive when I post. I know I tend to argue back and it may seem at times to you that I’m a bit crazy. However I’m getting ready to start a family of my own. I don’t feel I will make a very good mother until I can sort through the pieces of what I was raised with a determine what was normal about it and what wasn’t. What can I pass on and what should stay in my past. Growing up family was all I knew, it seemed normal. I’m tried of getting appalled looks when I talk to my peers about it. I can’t turn to family in some cases so I turn to the web. I use other mothers as sounding boards in figuring it out. I have read all the post of this site and all its comments. I feel pretty assured that if what I’m saying is completely strange I’ll be told and told why. Honestly you don’t know what you don’t know until you tell someone and they comment back.
I guess the most concise answer is I’m not a troll just a little lost. Pretending to have answers is just the simplest method of getting other answers. There is no where on the web were I could ask the questions I have and actually get answers I’m looking for, I would be told to seek professional help.
(Also would you rather people with complicated histories get these things sorted out before they have kids or after? I know which one I prefer.)
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Toni Reply:
May 23rd, 2012 at 4:23 am (Quote)
“…some of those things (smoking around a baby and face down were) considered grounds to take a baby by the time I was born.”
Lol. Those still aren’t grounds to “take a baby” (if you mean CPS taking custody). They are just realy bad ideas that have been abandoned because the evidence has proven them harmful. Hell, whiskey on the gums seems more likely to result in your kids getting taken from you, as that involves actually giving a minor alcohol. But, no, I don’t think you are very old at all. Quite the contrary; you sound very young (and inexperienced).
I do however respect that you are looking for answers and trying to decide what you will accept/reject from your own upbringing before having kids. If that is genuine it makes sense. Sorry if I get riled up, but some of your posts do seem a lot more like assertions rather than questions, so I tend to debate rather than offer answers, lol. I wouldn’t be so edgy in my responses if it didn’t seem like you’ve already made up your mind.
Has it occurred to you that when you make these assertions, especially when you accuse those who do things differently than what you are used to, of being “permissive” or “spoiling” thier kids, that it is hard to want to have a civil discussion with someone like that? Just a suggestion – if you are looking for answers, maybe stick to asking questions, rather than making accusations
And there are plenty of places on the web that cover the benefits and drawbacks of various parenting methods where you will not be prompted to seek help. Maybe start with reading up on recommendations from the AAP or the WHO. Learn what AP is, and what it isn’t, before making up your mind. And remember, no matter what you “believe” before you have kids, you have a way of doing tons of learning “on the job”. What you believe before your kids come along is very likely to change, often dramatically, once they are here
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Someone Reply:
May 23rd, 2012 at 12:25 pm (Quote)
I tend to make a very aggressive style because when people are angry they are also very honest. I appreciate the fact you have laid out information very plainly. I’m a very quite and laid back person face to face, so I don’t tend to get a lot of honest answers in person.
Sorry if the take the kids thing was over the top. I was just pointing out that it was out of vogue long before I came around.
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Aunt4God Reply:
May 23rd, 2012 at 9:34 am (Quote)
I would also suggest coming up with a different handle/online name…..if you’re really not trolling, using the handle of “someone” makes it seem like you’re trying to hide something and not really there to engage in meaningful conversations. It doesn’t have to be your full name (mine obviously isn’t!) but something a little more than just “someone”…..even if you just more descriptives with that and keep the “someone”, it would go over a lot better. Just a suggestion……
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Aunt4God Reply:
May 23rd, 2012 at 9:35 am (Quote)
I would also suggest coming up with a different handle/online name…..if you’re really not trolling, using the handle of “someone” makes it seem like you’re trying to hide something and not really there to engage in meaningful conversations. It doesn’t have to be your full name (mine obviously isn’t!) but something a little more than just “someone”…..even if you just use more descriptives with that and keep the “someone”, it would go over a lot better. Just a suggestion……
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Kit Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 3:24 am (Quote)
Someone,
Could I suggest a change of tactic? Find parents around you whom you like, who have children who are happy and respectful and do well in school. Find parents of the kind of kid you wish you could have, and talk to them. Ask them about what they did to raise their child/ren who obviously turned out so well. Question them about those newborn days, feeding, sleeping etc. Question them about schedules and routines and discipline. The “proof is in the pudding” as Toni says, so find someone who has good pudding and get their recipe!
I know if a young mom or mom-to-be asked me, I would feel flattered. And I have yet to meet a mom who is not happy to walk down memory lane with a volunteer. Most of us are struggling to find someone who will listen to our stories for the 30th time because we love telling them so much (or maybe that one is just me )
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Toni Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 9:43 am (Quote)
Just wanted to point out one thing: I hope you realize that you have done an excellent job of proving my point. I contend that empathy (including consideration for the needs of those besides yourself) is learned behavior and it can only be learned when you see it demonstrated. You parents responded to your needs as an infant by ignoring you completely, and as a toddler by beating you into submission. And now you are incapable of extending empathy to even your own children. Here is what you have said (some are direct quotes):
“Let it holler”. Smack it around some. “Tan their hides”. It was good enough for me, it’s good enough for my possessions, er, kids. Sometimes babies cry just to be a PITA to their parents. Even small babies can be ignored for hours at a stretch. etc, etc, etc.
It really is pretty stunning how you fail to see the irony. You are the embodiment of why CIO is a bad idea. It leads to selfish people who are incapable of showing compassion to others, even their own children
Pretty striking to outside observers, I’m sure. But I don’t doubt that you lack the perception to see it. That’s pretty sad to
[Reply]
Someone Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 1:26 pm (Quote)
Only one of those is a qoute, one was a paraphrase. (I said they would have tanned my hide, not to tan anybody else hide.) I have consideration for the needs of others, I just think children have different needs then you do. I was raised to believe that children need to learn to be obedient, polite, self sufficient, and respectful. I don’t see how AP and all these forms of baby centered rearing teach a child how to be obedient when given a command even if the command makes no sense, is unpleasant, or is given in a hurtful way. That I believe is something children need to learn and I will fulfill this need. After all the world is full of people who are very much ready to let you cry by yourself in the bathroom after they rip you a new one.
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Rebecca Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 1:56 pm (Quote)
I am an AP parent. I have a teenager and a toddler.
For the most part, my children are obedient, polite, self-sufficent, and respectful, but in age-appropriate ways. My toddler daughter sleeps in her own room, but counts on me to help her get ready for bed through a bedtime routine. My son sleeps in his own room, but no longer needs a bedtime routine beyond the “DS, its bedtime, shut it down.” reminder. My teenager isn’t always polite at home (I’m told he’s a wonderful houseguest by other parents though) but that’s mostly because he’s a teenager and is at the age where he starts testing boundries again.
I don’t expect my toddler to hold the door for her elders, or wait to eat until everyone is eating, that will come as she gets a little older. Neither of my kids are self sufficient (we considered letting the teenager get a job, but decided against a regular job, though he can do odd jobs)but they can entertain themselves if needed. My teenager can cook a healthy family dinner, do laundry, and some basic household repairs. The toddler can’t do her laundry, but she can fold small items, put things away, and helps sort laundry. (She also helps unload the dishwasher and clear the table after meals- and she’ll be three this Monday)
Being child-centered does not mean not setting boundries, it means acknowledging the child’s needs, including the emotional ones. My daughter needed to sleep in my room with us after I had to leave for a few days on a trip. I made it clear it was for that night only. She needed that closeness because she didn’t understand why I had been gone.
Obedience is a tricky one. I’m afraid I don’t put a whole lot of stock into blind obedience, except to G-d. I have taught my children to be obedient out of respect for an individual or an institution (for example, if you happen to have a bad tempered or unskilled teacher, you would give the school respect by giving them respect) and that they should think before blindingly following directions. We have discussed what to do if directions don’t seem to make sense. Blind obedience to authority figures opens the way for authority figures to misuse their authority- and while I know most will not, it has become more and more a concern in this world.
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becky Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 3:04 pm (Quote)
Why on earth would you want to teach a child to be “obedient when given a command even if the command makes no sense, is unpleasant, or is given in a hurtful way”? I don’t understand that at all. Why would anyone follow a command like that unless they’re in a military situation? That mindset is setting them up to be abused by someone other than their parents. If I’m to follow a command, I need to know why. Children are people too.
Example, “I need you to pee in this cup,” vs “I need you to pee in this cup to see if you have a bladder infection.” It explains the command in an easy to understand way. How hard is that? It also shows and teaches respect. How can you expect your children to show respect if they’re not respected as human beings?
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Elaine Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 5:59 am (Quote)
@Someone, I was exactly like you. Had all these ideas on how to raise kids. Straight into their own rooms the minute you come home from the hospital. Leave to CIO from 6 weeks onwards, bottles from 3 months, solids at 4 months, whiskey on the gums, spanking, etc. Children who shall know their place, won’t *ever* interrupt and adult and be seen not heard. You know, the way my mother did things.
Then I had children. I breastfed, co-slept, and didn’t practice CIO. I decided, instead, to listen to my instincts. When a mother has a baby, and her baby cries, she wants to go to her baby immediately. It’s a feeling you get. That feeling is your instinct to go and take care of your child, it takes a lot more effort to fight the instinct than to just get up and do what you need to do.
You can’t really know what kind of parent you’ll be until you actually have kids. I am not a permissive parent, but I imagined how I’d feel if I’m scared, alone and sad in a dark room, crying my eyes out and no one bothers to come and comfort me because I’m not really crying for ‘any good reason.” I also remember being too afraid to call for my mother during the night, because like yours, I was spanked for getting out of bed after 8 pm. No child should be left alone and scared, and no child should fear his parents.
I’m quite a revolutionary in my family. In fact, my mother who was previously against breastfeeding, cuddling, and pro-CIO was very upset when my sister had a baby 6 months ago, and didn’t do things the way I did it(she didn’t breastfeed, doesn’t cuddle her baby, feeds her according to a strict 4-hourly schedule (effectively letting her scream when she’s hungry), etc. My mom, who was a strict scheduled bottle feeding, CIO, paddle-happy, ‘children should be seen and not heard’ parent, thinks my way is better. That should perhaps give you a clue.
On a side note:
I have never heard anyone say that my children are misbehaved. I have heard ‘extremely independent for their age’, ‘lovely manners’, ‘charming’, and ‘how do you get him to say please and thank you when he’s only two?!’ Attachment parenting doesn’t mean indulgent parenting.
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abba12 Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 5:47 pm (Quote)
Sounds like I made myself sound too nice. Yes a 15 month old is different to a 9 month old, but that dosen’t mean I didn’t use CIO until now. I’m sure you’ll be horrified to know I left my 4 month old to cry at times (with different time limits and checks and reasons suited to the age, my 15 month old knows I am still there even if not in the room, my 4 month old didn’t.) and within a couple of weeks she was sleeping through. I let my baby just cry during the day sometimes because, little infant babies DO just cry sometimes, and the couple of times my 15mo decided to really test the boundaries and throw a proper tantrum she DID recieve an age appropriate spanking, and I have no issue with that, it has happened no more than 3 or 4 times in relation to night sleeping and I believe it was entirely nececary those times as there was nothing wrong, I had no doubt in my mind it was a toddler tantrum just like a child who dosen’t get a chocolate bar.
Ok sure, my daughter would have some sleep if I did not force her, it’s not completely all or nothing, but it would NOT be enough. It is absolutely terrible the number of toddlers today who are sleep deprived, they stay up late, wake through the night, get up early to go to daycare before mum goes to work, and have maybe one nap during the day. It is just as wrong to starve a baby of sleep as it is to starve a baby of food, and the number of toddlers and young children not getting enough sleep is scary, and I believe a contributing factor to many of the behaviour issues that have become more prominent today. I know I can see a huge difference in my daughter between a night where she goes to bed late and gets 10 hours, and a night where she goes to bed on time and gets 12-14, both times sleeping through the night so I know that is not a contributing factor to the behaviour differences.
As for a childs ability to understand, yep, you’re right, my toddler does not understand ‘wanting to get up in the middle of the night keeps mum and dad awake and isn’t nice’, but she does understand ‘wanting to get up in the middle of the night is an unacceptable behaviour’. Does your toddler understand that not saying please and thank you is unkind because it shows a lack of appreciation for what you have? Probably not to the depth they need to to see a purpose behind it. But I take it you instruct your child to say please anyway, expecting they will learn the WHY of it later. What about when your toddler leaves a mess at a friends house, I’ll bet the child dosen’t understand the emotional and physical ramifications of trashing a room, but I also bet you tell your child to clean up anyway, you might tell her ‘because it’s the right thing to do’ but I doubt the child really understands why.
I am legally blind, right now my daughter has NO concept of that idea whatsoever, but she does know that she must hold my hand at all times while out of the house even if the other children aren’t holding their parents hands, she knows she absolutely may not go running to look at interesting things, because doing otherwie would be an unacceptable behaviour. And just like waking at night, she will learn the reasons as she matures. When she is older she will understand that I wouldn’t be able to find her if she ran off to look at something. You think we need to wait until our children can understand why a behaviour is wrong before we can teach them not to do it? Well good luck with that, but I don’t care if my toddler understands WHY she can’t touch the oven right now, I just care about making sure she knows that she cannot.
And yet, despite believing in ‘beating’ my child, as so many non-spanking activists like to call it, and despite believing in letting her cry from a young age, I still manage to do so in a way that is safe and responsible.
As for crying for hours on end, it rarely happens. It never happened when she was little because she learnt to sleep at a young age, I wasn’t there trying to teach her to sleep at 9 months when she’s used to getting cuddles, by the time she was 9 months it was a completely normal natural behaviour for her so she didn’t fight it. Isn’t that what all the infant toilet training people try to tell us, that making a behaviour normal from the start is better than trying to change it later? I doubt she ever cried for more than an hour, usually no more than half an hour, until she was a year old. Recently she has begun pushing boundaries in sleep just like she is pushing all her boundaries, and we have had a few hours long crying fits, never all night though, and they are rare and filled with tantrum type behaviours (these are the only times she has been spanked in regards to sleeping as well).
I can see a 9 momth old who is used to getting it’s own way screaming all night when suddenly it dosen’t get what it’s always gotten before, that’s why I think it’s so important to instill healthy sleep habits from the very beginning. We never had that stage because there was no need for that stage, and now, at a time when most parents seem to be struggling every night to put their kids to bed, my daughter will often go to bed for the night without a sound, she understands what bedtime is and what is expected and even lets us know when she wants it sometimes. On top of that, she knows she isn’t to wake up at 5 in the morning, she knows she needs a couple more hours once the sun comes up, and we are BOTH far better off for it.
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Toni Reply:
May 23rd, 2012 at 2:40 am (Quote)
“I’m sure you’ll be horrified to know I left my 4 month old to cry at times (with different time limits and checks and reasons suited to the age, my 15 month old knows I am still there even if not in the room, my 4 month old didn’t.) ”
Not “horrified” in the least. It is not what I would be comfortable with, but I also know you bottle fed. I do think that makes a difference, not in the child’s sleep needs, but in the parent’s comfort level with ignoring them. You could look at the empty bottle and say to yourself that she’s had “enough”. A bfing mother doesn’t have that “luxury”. When my kids woke at night I had to accept the possibility that they might actually needed me. Of course, it does come back to viewing kids as human beings, not inconveniences to be managed. It does sound like you set appropriate limits on yourself as to how long you would let her scream.
I do find it funny, and just need to point out, my mother never practiced CIO with me and my siblings (though that was much more expected at the time). And we just cannot seem to do it to our kids. The only people I know who are psychologically capable of allowing an infant/small child to scream like that are those who were inflicted with that themselves. Kind of backs up they notion that empathy is learned. Between you and Someone (who was actually beaten at night for waking up) I can see why you don’t understand my positon. And I am not against spanking (use it myself on occassion). I am against inappropriate punishment for something that isn’t a “crime”. Waking at night, while it may be inconvenient for you, is not harmful or disrespectful. I prefer to reserve corporal punishment for the times when the situation is serious. A kid waking up at night is not the end of the world.
Oh, btw, my children are now 5 and 2 and both sleep all night (10-12 hours) in their own beds, in their own room. The 5 year old doesn’t need anything more than a story and a hug and a kiss, the 2 year old needs a lullaby in addition to the story/hug/kiss combo. Never had to endure “that stage” (screaming for hours) with either one of them. Not sure why you think “that stage” would be compulsory without forcing kids to ignore their own nighttime needs in infancy. Odd that.
Oh, and, no, you don’t need to wait until kids are old enough to understand all the whys and wherefores to discourage inappropriate behavior. But why do you think waking up at night is inappropriate in the first place? If you wake up to pee or get a drink, do you procede to punish yourself for such inappropriate behavior? Just because you don’t know *why* your toddler woke up doesn’t mean there isn’t somehting going on.
But it is easier to tell yourself that she’s just being a PITA than it is to actually figure it out or deal with it compassionately… Wonder what will happen in your house when she gets to the age of nightmares and boogie men. I’ve never had a problem with that; mine don’t even nees/use “lovies” at night. Then again, they have always felt secure. I’ve never given them any reason to feel otherwise…
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Toni Reply:
May 23rd, 2012 at 4:40 am (Quote)
Wanted to add: I think the proof is, as they say, in the pudding. Someone has established that she has no children and is merely seeking a dicussion to provide herself with answers. Okay. Abba12 has one child, 15 months old, and has been using CIO as a sleep training method for at least 9 months (maybe longer?). Her household is in “turmoil” (her words) over her child’s continued nighttime wakings despite being “sleep trained” in that fashion. I’d ask how it’s working for her, but I see we have our answer.
I have noticed most people I’ve encountered, IRL and on the web, who use CIO that their kids seem to have a LOT more nighttime sleeping issues, for a LOT longer, than those who use a more “AP” style. Kids who CIO, IME, are more inclined to need long, elaborate bedtime rituals, lovies, or security objects, be afraid of the dark, have nightmares, or be convinced there are monsters under the bed. I’ve also noticed they seem to take longer to nighttime potty train (I can’t imagine the dissonance associated with telling a baby for years that waking up at night is “bad behavior”, going so far as punishing them for it, teaching them to ignore their own nighttime needs, then, all of a sudden, telling them to wake up and get out of bed to use the potty if their bladder is full – WTF? how does a toddler/preschooler reconcile that crap??).
I realize that abba has not yet reached that stage with her daughter, but I ask you, have you not thought that far ahead? What are you going to do? How will you handle that? And why would you want to set yourself up for that nonsense? Especially since what you have been doing has resulted in “turmoil” over your child feeling insecure at night (again, your word)?
Then I look at my two kids who were responded to consistantly and compassionately. My five year old goes to bed easily; if she needs to use the bathroom she climbs down from the top bunk, takes herself into the bathroom, does her thing (without waking anyone or even turning on the lights), takes herself back to her room, closes the door, and goes back to sleep. My two year old doesn’t give us any bedtime drama either, and if she wakes at night (maybe 2 nights of every 10) I will change her (if needed), give her a sip of water, snuggle for a moment, and tell her that mommy is going back to bed, hugs, kisses, eskimos, she says good night and rolls over, back to sleep. Maybe this AP stuff actually works. I would not characterize any of my nighttime dealings with my kids as “turmoil”. Transitions were handled gently, patiently, and compassionately, and now everything is seemless. Most people (at least those who practice CIO) can’t believe how easy my kids are at bedtime…
Hmmmm…
The proof is in the pudding….
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Something I haven’t seen mentioned (might have missed it) is that sometimes babies who have been sleeping “through the night” start waking up because they are in pain from teething. I realize that not all babies have teething pain, but many do. And there is a physiologic reason that everything hurts more at night: our cortisol levels are at their lowest about 4:00am.
What a shame that some babies are still left to cry all alone.
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vanessa Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 1:33 pm (Quote)
And teething pain/discomfort can start sometimes MONTHS before the teeth erupt!
Interesting about the cortisol levels, I never knew that…But maybe you might mean endorphins, since cortisol is a hormone released in response to stress? Endorphins are the body’s natural pain killers, as far as I know
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teapot Reply:
May 22nd, 2012 at 9:15 pm (Quote)
No, Vanessa, I meant cortisol. I was told about cortisol levels bottoming out by two different doctors a number of years apart. One was the pedi allergist that my children saw, who was explaining why some children will wheeze all night long, and then have perfectly clear lungs when they are seen in clinic the next morning. The other was just a few weeks ago when a pain specialist was discussing why pain of any sort is worse at night and tends to disrupt sleep.
You are right, though: endorphins do counteract pain, but I don’t know anything about how/when the body produces them.
And, yes, some babies will have pain for a VERY long time before a tooth makes its appearance. I’ve been told that some babies cut teeth with no fuss or bother, but have never witnessed it myself.
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Jenny Islander had this to say,
May 22, 2012 @ 2:33 am (Quote)
The thing that gets me every time is that sleeping through the night is a cultural artifact. Without strong, steady light, such as electric light or gaslight, humans naturally drop off, sleep about 4 hours or so, wake up for an hour or so, sleep another 4 hours or so, and then it’s morning. See At Day’s Close by Ekirch for extensive documentation of life in the last couple of centuries before gaslight became prevalent in the West. Babies who wake at night are just being normal humans. So much for baby training experts who hint at Dire Things if the baby doesn’t learn to be silent all night while he/she is still helpless and dependent on adults for absolutely everything.
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I was told I was “spoiling” my baby by sitting up with him through sleepless nights, when it turns out they were due to sleep apnea and seizures(only caught because I was so proactive and went to several doctors until they took me seriously). You know when your baby needs you. I let my second child fuss for a few minutes, then if she needs help sleeping I rock her. She sleeps like a champ.
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I’m not against some whimpering/fussing, but full on screaming all night long as a routine before a baby goes to sleep? I don’t think so… We don’t know for sure what screaming for hours does to a baby’s neurological development long term, but it makes sense to me to be cautious since so much of their brain is still developing.
There is also a big big difference between giving a child everything he/she wants all the time and creating stressful bedtimes, when your child needs you most and feels ignored. I have put my now 4 year old son in time-outs when time he misbehaves starting at around one year old. We started with one minute and increased the time with age, but never more than around 4-5 minutes. It worked very well for him, he is a very well behaved child. However he was never left to cry it out alone in the dark at night we were very responsive anytime he needed attention/love/hugs whether it was day or night. He’s a very affectionate, sweet child now.
My 9 month old daughter is a different story though as she is very strong willed (evident from day one, when she refused the bassinet and day two, when we had to pull over five minutes out from our destination because she was screaming in the car seat, turns out she had a dirty diaper and didn’t particularly care for it). This child goes from 0 to screaming-bloody-murder-forgetting-to-breathe-and-turning-purple in about 5 seconds flat, so I can’t even let her whimper in her crib for that long either. She will not fall asleep on her own in her crib no matter what, I have to nurse-rock-sing and then transfer her once she’s asleep. Just 30 minutes ago I had to fight with her to take a nap, she obviously needs to sleep because she’s grumpy, but she doesn’t want to slow down for a nap. My plan for her is to continue to respond to her night time and daytime needs for affection, food, etc, while setting strict boundaries and limits when she throws tantrums during the day (yes, she already has tantrums at 9 months old). I don’t think I am abusing my child if I set rules and let her scream the tantrums out, if otherwise I am a responsive parent.
I guess what I’m trying to say is babies and children are all different, what works for one won’t work for the other. But for any child to be left screaming all night long is unacceptable. There are better ways to lovingly teach a child to fall and stay asleep.
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Kit Reply:
May 24th, 2012 at 3:18 am (Quote)
Vanessa, I’ve been right where you are! My first sounds exactly like your second. No one believed that an eight-month-old could throw temper tantrums, but I saw it every day! She’s 3 and 1/2 now (and still very strong-willed) but is also respectful and well-mannered and happy and exuberant. We have always been consistent in her schedule and discipline, and that has helped a lot.
I just wanted you to know that you are not alone.
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Rebeccadawn had this to say,
May 27, 2012 @ 1:00 am (Quote)
CIO causes brain damage: http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/crying-it-out-causes-brain-damage.html
Someone, I hope you especially read this.
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Add Your Comment.
…because ignoring a baby’s needs usually results in them no longer having any.
Or, you know, they stop crying because they no longer trust you or believe that you will come and solve their very real problems.
I know it’s annoying when a baby doesn’t sleep well. My second woke every 40 min. and took no consistent naps until he was over a year old. We didn’t let him cry, we got through it, and he’s an almost 3-year-old who sleeps great now, thanks. AND trusts that I will be there for him when he needs me….
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MelissaC Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 6:45 am MelissaC(Quote)
Exactly! (sub just past 2.5 year old for almost 3 year old)
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Missy Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 10:08 am Missy(Quote)
This is comforting to me! My 9-month-old doesn’t sleep well. Actually, he does fine at night (cosleeps) but during the day I am lucky to get him to take 2 45-minute naps. It really concerns me and I have been teetering on the edge of letting him CIO, just to learn to sleep better by himself. It’s because I worry that his lack of sleep will make him unhealthy. It is good to know that he might start taking better naps the older he gets.
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Kate @ Modern Alternative Mama Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 11:00 am Kate @ Modern Alternative Mama(Quote)
They are all different. My oldest slept in 20-minute stretches until around 6 months, then took a “real” nap. My youngest took 2 – 3 hour naps almost from birth. And my middle child…well, you know. We co-slept until he was 15 months old. He’s a great sleeper now. He’s the only one I can transfer from the car to bed with no problems, he rarely wakes up at night (only if he’s wet or sick), he goes to bed happily, etc. It can seem like forever when they don’t sleep well…but they WILL get past it if you just keep snuggling them and loving them, and you might even miss those middle-of-the-night snuggles or sleepless, snuggly afternoons.
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