Posted by My OB said WHAT?!?.
May
12
Posted by My OB said WHAT?!?.
“…Rules Are Rules.”
“I have to take the fetus. Rules are rules!” - Nurse to mother in the Emergency Department for a miscarriage, who asked to be able to to keep the remains of her 12 week gestational age baby.
There are 47 comments to this post.
More of my story is posted under the “come back if you’re in so much pain its like your arm is being chopped off” quote.
I was sent home from the ER the first day when I presented with cramping and spotting at 12 weeks… with no idea what to expect. I was not given a choice as to whether I wanted to miscarry naturally or have a D+C.
The next day, I went into labor (VERY INTENSE! IMO, more intense than my full term med-free birth) and delivered my baby in my bathroom at home. He was amazing, and my husband and I took pictures and cradled him in our hands. Surprisingly, I had that same “oxytocin” rush as after a full term birth and I really bonded with my little baby. We put him in a ziploc bag of water and put him in the fridge. We planned to bury him in a corner of our garden the next day.
I began to hemorrhage (I wound up losing half my blood volume, or 2.5 liters. I eventually (after waiting for hours in the ER, sitting in pools of blood) received 4 units of blood, a unit of plasma, 6 other liters of IV fluids, various narcotics for pain, lasix, pitocin, methergine, manual evacuations of clots (which is incredibly painful) and finally an emergency D+C.
I didn’t know at the time, but the paramedics that took me to the hospital asked my husband if I had indeed miscarried: “How do you know?” So my husband showed them our baby. They put his body in a biohazard bag and brought him to the hospital. It was not our intention to bring him at all… I didn’t want anyone to touch him!
So, at some point early on in my ER visit, while I was still unstable and in shock, a random nurse barged in without knocking and without introducing herself to me and walked straight over to the counter top and grabbed the biohazard bag with my baby inside. She said “I have to take the fetus.” I said: “No, you can’t. I want him.” She actually looked ANNOYED at me and said “well, rules are rules!” I couldn’t believe my ears! How callous she was about it!
I said I didn’t care about rules, he was my baby, not hers! I wanted him and she COULD NOT have him. She said “well, you’ll have to talk to the chaplain… she was the one who asked me to get the body!” I was in shock– the chaplain, the one who was there for my emotional and spiritual health, was the one trying to take my baby???
I was so upset about the whole thing that I went into a full on panic attack (I don’t normally get those) and began hyperventilating. Keep in mind that I was not in a stable condition– my blood pressure was around 65/40 and my heart rate was above 130 at all times. I had people come in to literally hold me down and remind me to breathe.
I told my husband to take our baby and hide him in my purse. I was wild with anxiety. I kept saying to him “they can’t have him if they don’t know where he is!”
They kept insisting that the baby go to pathology and that he’d have to be cremated (that made me cry!!). I didn’t understand why! Eventually, since I made such a scene, they “made some phone calls” with their legal department and with pathology and determined that it would be fine if I took my baby home after all.
What bothers me so much about this is that I found out later than in my state, babies miscarried before 20 weeks are considered “nothing” to the state because of abortion laws. Parents can do anything they want with their own miscarried babies– like have a simple and beautiful burial in their yard like we did. The hospital had NO legal right to my baby at all. All I wanted was to just say goodbye to him…
The whole situation was really traumatic. I had a second miscarriage less than 4 months later, and I did A LOT of grieving. I am in a good place now, 9 months later. I know that the hospital did save my life and I am so glad that I have access to maternity care here in this country, even if they were so unkind. At least I’m alive.
I also, at one point, told off a resident for yelling at me for planning a homebirth for that pregnancy. I was half conscious… bleeding out. But… I’m so proud of myself for advocating for myself and baby. In that way, it was a positive experience. I was able to find my voice. I have since called and made formal complaints against the ER, the OB residents, and radiology at that hospital. They said they would have sensitivity trainings and that it would go on a permanent record.
Another benefit of this, is that I work in maternity as an RN at a different hospital, and I’ve been able to work with other bereaved mothers. I have a depth of empathy now that I would never have had otherwise. I never want another woman to have to fight like that– getting yelled at and ignored– while she is struggling to stay alive!
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Michelle Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 4:25 pm (Quote)
You are superwoman. Not only able to stand up for yourself while struggling for your own life, but also strong enough to make formal complaints and help other women have better experiences! You are my hero!
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Dawn Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 5:09 pm (Quote)
You have changed things with your strong stance. Thank you.
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Dee Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 6:31 pm (Quote)
Oh my heavens…your story broke my heart. This is one of the saddest stories I have read here. I am so, so sorry! Bless you for being so kind and compassionate to other women who have lost a child in your role as a nurse. I know my miscarriage was one of the worst things that ever happened to me.
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Bekah Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 6:35 pm (Quote)
I am so glad to hear that you did in fact get to take your baby home! I was expecting to hear that the hospital got it’s way and I’m so happy to know that you stood up and fought for your rights. Way to go!!
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Kit Reply:
May 14th, 2012 at 3:35 pm (Quote)
Ditto this. Your story is so sad but I was really glad to hear your family got to go home together and your son got buried where his parents wanted him to be.
Shame on them for treating you so badly, and bless you for being the support all mothers, grieving or rejoicing, deserve.
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Argentina Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 7:58 pm (Quote)
I am so sorry you went through this, but am so happy to hear that you were able to defend yourself and your baby. Thank you for speaking up and making those formal complaints. Not saying anything at all, keeps them doing what they’re doing wrong.
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Sheva Reply:
May 13th, 2012 at 6:48 am (Quote)
I’m so sorry. I’m glad you were able to find your voice, and that it ended more positively than it could have. And bless you for using your experience to help others.
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Wendy Reply:
May 21st, 2012 at 5:21 pm (Quote)
God bless you for standing up for yourself, and for advocating for women everywhere. I have had two miscarriages myself, and they were incredibly painful emotionally. Unfortunately, both required D&E’s since my body wasn’t doing what it needed to do on it’s own. I was too distraught to ask to have the remains returned to me after the first, and opted to have genetic testing on the second to find out what the problem was (turned out to be a trisomy that is “generally incompatible with life”). Never realized I could have anything returned to me then. I really wish I had my little angels buried somewhere we could go visit. You are an amazing and strong woman!
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FS_Doula Reply:
May 27th, 2012 at 9:03 pm (Quote)
I’m a full-spectrum doula, and let me tell you how awful this nurse was to say “fetus.” We are trained to echo our clients’ language. When they say “baby,” we say “baby.” “Fetus” is “fetus.” Embryo is… well you get it. The nurse should have allowed you the opportunity to call what you’d lost by the name you’d chosen, and it breaks my heart that she didn’t.
Even when we’re working with clients who are CHOOSING to terminate, we echo the language. It’s not up for discussion. It’s their body, their pregnancy, their choice.
So sorry for your losses. But so much love for advocating for yourself. Very few women in your situation would have been empowered enough.
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It’s not a fetus, it’s a baby. It’s MY baby. And you’re taking my baby over my dead body. Go ahead and cross me, let’s see how well that ends for you. Rest assured that I’ll forget I’m a pacifist.
OP, I am so sorry. So sorry for your loss and beyond sorry for the heartless treatment you received.
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First off I want to say I am so sorry for your lose.
But, the nurse has a point it’s a biohazard and asking for mom to take it so she can most likely send it to the morgue (not the trash)is the responsible thing to do with a biohazard in a large open ER. The other, crueler option is to ask mom to put her remains in a biohazard bag (looks just a trash bag, except for the hazard symbol) and hold her baby in a closed bag. I would rather not ask a mother to place her child in a trash bag, if the baby goes to the morgue she will see them later in a better more respectful setting.
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Mama Wrench Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 8:00 am (Quote)
I don’t know where you’re getting that the baby goes to the morgue. The vast majority of the time, unless there are circumstances warranting an investigation (to make sure no tissue is left in Mom) the baby is tossed with the rest of the hospital’s biowaste. “People” go to the morgue. “Fetuses” are just tissue, didntchaknow.
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Agnes Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 10:56 am (Quote)
At the parents request I have heard of them being sent down to the morgue for later burial. People walk out of the hospital with all sorts of biological tissue (placentas, appendixes…xyz). Most hospitals policies is to ask what to do with recognizable fetal remains and organs
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Agnes Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 11:00 am (Quote)
Just read the pink link, the nurse should have not spoken about what was going to be done with the remains after the pathology unit got done with it. She did step beyond her bounds there.
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Bonita Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 3:03 pm (Quote)
Bull. That nurse gave the mom that all of her wishes were about to be flagrantly thrown away. She wanted to bury the baby, if the nurse hadn’t said something about the cremation the OP would have never seen her child again or been able to say goodbye in her own time. WHat the nurse did wrong was even try to take the baby.
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amanda Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 7:38 pm (Quote)
it may be the case that some parents request that the body go to the morgue (and this is respected), however what is much MORE common is that parents ASSUME their child’s body will be treated with dignity and respect, and it is then indeed thrown in the garbage.
or, it could be a case like mine was, where the doctor in the ER actually informed me i couldn’t have the products, because that was not ‘healthy’ and the products WOULD be disposed of. (i was also able to have my boy released to me for burial in the end).
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Sheva Reply:
May 13th, 2012 at 6:54 am (Quote)
If you read the original link, the baby was already in a biohazard bag. The mom had already seen it. All the nurse wanted to do was take it. And if mom asked why and nurse answered, that is not overstepping her bounds.
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Details Reply:
May 14th, 2012 at 7:26 am (Quote)
“a random nurse barged in without knocking and without introducing herself to me and walked straight over to the counter top and grabbed the biohazard bag with my baby inside. She said “I have to take the fetus.” I said: “No, you can’t.”
Walking in without introducing herself and taking something without permission is most definately overstepping her bounds. Arguing about it after only makes it worse.
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Sheva Reply:
May 14th, 2012 at 7:54 am (Quote)
The nurse was definitely way out of bounds. I wasn’t defending her at all. I was only responding to the comment that said that “nurse should have not spoken about what was going to be done with the remains after the pathology unit got done with it. She did step beyond her bounds there.” I don’t think that a nurse answering a mom’s question honestly about what will happen is wrong. Actually, she should have to answer all questions honestly. But how she said it, that it had to be said at all, that she was arguing, that she wasn’t even the nurse assigned to the mom, and a host of other issues – those were all horribly wrong.
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And rules are made to be broken.
When I had my 12-week m/c, I delivered her (we had a girls name picked and were still looking for a boys name. Since it was too early to tell, ‘she’ is Tessa to us) at home. I went to the ER, but didn’t take the baby with me. The doctor tried to tell me we should have brought her in, but didn’t push the issue.
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The “rules” state that if it came from MY body, I get to take it home with me if I want. Soooo…
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Nicole Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 8:09 am (Quote)
And by “it” I mean any tissue, teeth, placentas, babies, even foreign objects removed from a patient’s body goes home with them if they request. I didn’t mean for it to come out like I was using the term “it” to refer to a baby, because that’s not how I speak.
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Kristy Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 8:22 am (Quote)
My brother stuck an eraser in his ear far enough that it had to be removed in the ER. The nurse told him in a ‘can you believe the stupidity’ voice “Do you know what we have to do now? We have to send this to the lab… so they can tell us it is an eraser that we took out of a kid’s ear.” Even the kid could tell the ‘rules’ can lean to the side of crazy sometimes.
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Not in American medicine, unfortunately. Read the story of Henrietta Lacks, and you will be astounded…. Once anything leaves our body, we no longer have ownership of it according to the medical field and the courts. HeLa cells have made researchers millions upon millions, yet her family can’t even afford life insurance, because it was determined that once tissue left the body, ownership of it was relinquished. It’s appalling.
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Nicole Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 8:52 am (Quote)
This took place long ago. There are now policies and laws in place allowing people to take home their tissues.
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Rebecca Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 10:56 am (Quote)
Unfortunately the laws mean nothing if the public and the medical community are unaware of them. Even if you inform someone of the law, its not always sufficient to get them to follow it.
Also those laws vary from state to state, so it may not be the case for everyone.
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Knitted in the Womb Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 1:18 pm (Quote)
When I actually bothered to read the “consent to treat” paperwork before signing it in my second pregnancy, I noted that there was a line about any tissues obtained being used for research or in any other manner the hospital deemed fit. Having just freshly read “Without Moral Limits” (a book about infertility research history–wonderful things like how researchers would offer free hysterectomies–with the condition that women had to use no birth control in the weeks leading up to the surgery, and the surgery was specifically scheduled to occur right after an embryo might have implanted, or researchers harvesting eggs from women during hysterectomies and fertilizing them with their own sperm), I crossed that line out and specified that unless otherwise authorized, all tissues were to be destroyed via incineration.
Of course I was thinking of the placenta and umbillical cord being incinerated…not a miscarried baby. If I had a miscarriage at 12 weeks I suspect I would want to have a private burial as the OP did.
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I am so sorry for the loss of your little one. There is nothing sadder than when our child dies…
I’m an ER nurse and I can almost guarantee there is no such rule, anywhere. There’s “stuff we usually do so I guess that’s how it’s done so I guess there might be a policy on handling this so I guess there’s a rule.”
I have cared for many a patient while she labored through her miscarriage or after the miscarriage occurred at home. I always offer time with their baby: to look, to hold, to cradle, to take home. I start small with just “look” and see how they go from there. Most women are apparently grossed out by the idea and think *I’m* the crazy one, but I always make sure that option is there and that I offer it a few times. I’ll keep the baby safe in some sort of not-quite-so-harsh container as a biohazard bag and apologize for whatever container it is (a clear bag or a tupperware container doesn’t offer much dignity either, I’m afraid). Maybe cover container with a blanket and baby can stay in room with mom and whoever until she is sure either way. If mom wants to look, then I offer a closer look, a hold, etc. The option of going home is always there.
Most nurses probably won’t do the same, but know that there is a very small chance a “rule” is anywhere in place and, as always, you have rights. If folks can take home their gallstones or appendix, you better believe your beautiful baby can come home with you! I took my placenta home after my hospital birth–a few weird looks, but not many. Hopefully more and more staff will become educated and this won’t be such an issue someday.
Blessings to you, OP.
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Knitted in the Womb Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 1:28 pm (Quote)
Tracy, how kind of you! I know someone who had a still birth of 30 week twins who was never offered a chance to look at them, and it haunts her. This was only about 6 years ago, so it baffles me–I thought the medical community realized years ago that parents should be allowed a chance to say “good bye.”
I would encourage you to also consider “Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep” as a resource for grieving women in your care. This is a network of professional photographers who volunteer their services to take tasteful photos of babies who die before birth or slightly after. They can take these pictures even if the mom does not want to look at her baby in the moment–she may want to look at them later to help in her grieving.
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amanda Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 7:44 pm (Quote)
tracy, thank you for what you do.
if you want a suggestion for presenting the baby – the nurses at the hospital where i picked my boy up (not where i delivered but it doesn’t matter its a long story) – had him placed in a small knitted cloth the size of a dishcloth and placed in a cardboard jewelry box from the dollar store. not sure if your hospital would be ok with something like that, but if they were i’m sure there would be an organization that would be willing to knit the blankets for the little ones.
again, thanks for what you are doing. i think often moms are afraid to see their baby because they don’t know its ok, but i have talked to so many bereaved parents and many do regret not having that chance to say goodbye. you are doing a great service to parents.
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Holly Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 8:27 pm (Quote)
If a hospital is interested in doing something like that, they should look into local moms groups! I am pres of a small moms group (formerly a chapter of MOMS Club Int’l until we disbanded/reformed under our own group due to hypocrisy) but anyway, we are currently making all different sizes of baby blankets. We started at six inch squares and went up from there. We are knitting, crocheting, sewing, whatever. They can hold a teeny tiny preemie in the NICU or an angel baby. We will be donating all of our collections next month. Our only requirements were that they had to be of SOFT material and that they had to have no holes little appendages could be stuck in. It is a labor of love for us mommas and we are happy to have SOME way to help! If your hospital is willing, reach out to your local moms groups and ask them for help in making/collecting tiny blankets!
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The reason why they’d need to take the fetus, baby, products of conception, etc. is to ensure the mother passed all of it. Unless they absolutely need to, they avoid doing D&Cs. As an EMT were were always taught to bring the remains if possible. Due to them needing to examine them to see if a D&C is needed.
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Tee Reply:
May 14th, 2012 at 7:46 am (Quote)
Let me ask you question, please. If that’s true, that the reason that they take everything is ensure that everything passed for the sake of not doing a D&C, then why can’t they give the baby back to the Mom when they are done checking things over? I can appreciate them (general them) trying to do everything possible to avoid the Mom needing surgery but I do not understand why they throw the baby away rather than returning him or her to Mom!
Tone can be so hard to read in the written word sometimes so please let me say that I’m being downright serious in my question, not sarcastic or nasty. I really am trying to understand here.
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Amy Reply:
May 15th, 2012 at 9:49 am (Quote)
I *believe* it’s because human remains can ONLY be released to a funeral home. Don’t quote me on that though. But, I believe that’s why.
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amanda Reply:
May 15th, 2012 at 10:28 am (Quote)
i think that is different depending on where you are. i’m in Canada and human remains CAN be released to family instead of funeral home if all the paper work is done. however, a fetus under 20 weeks is not considered human remains so can be released directly to the family without any paperwork of any kind.
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You’re right, Amy… they really wanted to avoid doing a D+C with me, because it was a Sunday night and they’d have to call all of their on-call surgery people in from home. (When I was wheeled up for surgery, they all told me: “you know… we came all the way here just for you.” It bothered me so much that they made such a big deal about getting called in. Sorry, it was so inconvenient to you, but can you save my life now??”) Instead, I lay there bleeding and bleeding and bleeding. Obviously, what they were doing wasn’t working, and I really did need the D+C. I was admitted to the ER at 4:30 in the afternoon while actively hemorrhaging and I didn’t get my emergency D+C until 9:30 at night. I would not have been as sick as I was if they had only moved a bit faster!!! Like I said, overall, I lost 2.5 liters of blood.
By the time I finally started to get transfusions, the physician signed an “emergency consent” for me and they just started the transfusion without getting formal consent from me first, since I was so critical. Obstetric hemorrhage is NO JOKE! My platelet count was so low at that point that I know I could have easily lost clotting factors and gone into full DIC and then REALLY have been in trouble!
And, it was obvious that I had not “passed everything” yet. At home, I had only passed the baby… no other membranes or placenta. I had some HUGE clots, but I still had a ton of stuff left inside that was causing the hemorrhage. My midwife came in the hospital to be with me and she was getting antsy– she kept asking: “What is taking so long??” I am also a nurse, and I know that ERs get crazy busy, but I was an unstable patient with an active hemorrhage, and the only attention I got for a few hours was a nurse trying to take my baby and an OB resident yelling at me for not having an OB, but rather having a homebirth CNM. It was ridiculous.
My hospital, on the other hand, that I work at is a Catholic hospital with a tradition of respect for life. When we have a mom come in with a loss, her baby is treated with such dignity and compassion. I am so proud of the nurses I work with in L+D and in the ER that handle these precious little ones.
I had previously delivered my daughter at this same hospital that I hemorrhaged at and received fantastic care. I also have a lot of friends that work there. It is a good hospital. Why my experience was so horrendous– I don’t know!
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“Would you mind getting me a printed copy of these rules? ALL the rules? And we’ll make sure you’ve followed all the rules yourself. Oh, and also get me a copy of the Patient Bill of Rights.”
OP: I’m sorry you were treated so heartlessly.
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road2vba2c Reply:
May 12th, 2012 at 7:11 am road2vba2c(Quote)
And while she’s gone, DH takes baby to the car. Oops… Your rules aren’t mine, nursie poo.
OP, my condolences. <3
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