I agree. My fiance works 12 hr days 5-6 days a week. My daughter and I are on medicaid because we are not married so he cannot cover us with his works insurance! That doesn’t mean that we don’t provide for our daughter or that our daughter or the baby we are currently carrying doesn’t deserve to be here! That means we don’t have extra money to provide insurance for us and need a little help. Once we get married it will be another story!

I can’t even believe anyone would hold the attitude this OB did! How is it any of his business or his place to judge. Shame on him!

I too am sorry OP. I’m sorry for your loss as I too have dealt with two previous losses if I ever heard that come out of any ob’s in the office I would have been truly devastated!

Emily, I can relate to the need to hold on, when no one else seems to remember. I light a candle for mine every week when I light Sabbath candles. (The custom is to light one for each child.) I don’t know if I’m supposed to, but it gives me some peace. I hope you find a way to remember without the pain. ((hugs))

SO right! When you lose a baby is NOT the time to debate political viewpoints on Medicaid, the healthcare system and who is using/abusing it. It was a life that was lost. Time for compassion and empathy, nothing else.

Can’t say I’d wish him on dogs, cats, or gerbils either.

It is becoming more common for maternity care to not be covered at all by private insurance.

College students run into this dilemma a lot. I’ve done some work with Feminists for Life, and it’s appalling how many universities won’t cover maternity care in their student health plans.

This is why the US needs universal healthcare. My head spins every time I see people rag Obama for his “communist ideals of health care”. Australian health care ROCKS!

Not that I think the mother should have sued. But doctors as a whole seem to whine about the medical malpractice climate and how they need to practice defensive medicine. It should occur to these same doctors that maybe the best defensive medicine would be keeping their mouths shut instead of saying hateful things in order to make themselves feel better.

Any doctor who would use the term “knocked up” should be slapped with a wet trout! That is so disrespctful all by itself. I can’t even deal with the rest of it!

Are you saying that people on public assistance should not be allowed to have children? What if they get pregnant, and then fall on hard times and have to rely on assistance, then what should they do?

Being a normal, well-functioning human being is “abusing the system”?

“Abusing the system” looks like this:
parents have job offers, but don’t want to work, and when they can’t afford more credit, decide to pop out another kid so they can afford a bigger TV.

Wanna bet how many times that actually happens? Hmmmmm? Go read up about things like levels of drug and alcohol abuse among those receiving government assistance as compared to the population at large. Go read about the criminally low rates of unemployment among perfectly well qualified minorities.

So, if I’ve understood you correctly, in your view: if people–many of whom have payed into the system for years–fall on hard times, they should have to choose between eating/basic healthcare/a roof over their heads and self-appointed busybodies deciding for them what they are and are not allowed to do with their lives? Go do a little reading…like maybe the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights. Notice how many of those sections have to do with freedom from undue interference with one’s major life-choices, one’s sexuality, one’s family?

Look, I get that for you, personally, children are extraneous. That’s fine. But that doesn’t make your lifestyle morally compelling or superior. Children are not extraneous for me, nor for the resounding majority of adults.

When my first baby was born (he was unplanned) I used Medicaid. You see, I was a college student. I was working part time, but not enough hours for benefits. By the way I missed only three days of classes and work when I gave birth.

My second child (also unplanned) came along during a job change. My DH put me on his insurance (as I no longer had my own) but it didn’t cover my pre-existing condition (that being pregnancy) I ended up using Medicaid for that one too. A friend of mine was unable to work to due complications from her pregnancy. After her sick/vacation time ran out, she wasn’t able to pay her premium and lost her coverage. Her baby was born on medicaid too.

How about employers, like my current one, who don’t even offer insurance, or don’t offer it to employee’s family members?

Admittedly, my preference would be to plan ahead and have money for the birth, but could you imagine going to the OB and saying “no, I can’t afford XYZ tests” chances are you’d be dropped- if you could even find an OB and hospital who would take you as a patient (before presenting in labor) without insurance.

Um, why do people waste their time arguing with somebody this opinionated and hateful?

I’ll completely ignore the heartless comments you made about the OP’s financial situation, and just say this: if it was a “private conversation” it should have been said in private. In a room out of earshot of anyone except the doctor and nurse. In earshot of the mother in question is WRONG no matter what you feel about the situation.

It wasn’t a private conversation if it was said within the mother’s hearing.
And your statement about tax dollars is irrelevant. Her baby DIED. No one should be happy about that. You and your stupid tax dollars. Who the hell cares about tax dollars when an innocent baby died? You must have no heart.

I am not a fan of people abusing the system, but to be happy that her baby died because it saved you some tax dollars is just inhuman.

I think you’ve kind of missed the point of maternity coverage. It’s not really intended so that every person who wants a baby can have one. It’s so that the babies who will be born have the best start at life. Because we could argue politics all day long and who is to blame, and who is responsible, the fact is that there is a potential person who deserves the best chance at a healthy future. Modern obstetric care (when applied correctly) gives those kids a good start at life. Taking care of their mother means that she won’t die of complications from childbirth or postpartum issues and she’s there to take care of her children.

If we only want to talk in terms of money (sorry if I’m offending anyone, I’m not trying to.) then it’s much cheaper to ensure a pregnant woman (no matter the circumstances) has a healthy pregnancy, healthy baby and is healthy herself, rather than worst case scenario of the child having complications, mom having complications, and the child having to be a ward of the state because mom is gone due to those complications. State maternity care IS the pragmatic choice.

It’s a fine line to walk wanting people to make responsible choices without policing their bodies. I can’t foresee a circumstance where I’d choose abortion, but if I needed one, I’d like it to be there. If we’re so concerned about other women’s reproductive choices, then we really ought to shore up abortion, birth control and education. Passing judgment doesn’t do a damned thing after the fact.

Besides all that, miscarriage is painful, whether the baby was planned or not. The doctor is a prick, especially in private. It would be like standing outside a funeral home saying “I’m glad she’s gone, we don’t really need old people wasting medicare dollars on life support” where the family of the poor woman could hear. You’re certainly entitled to an opinion, but it doesn’t make you less an asshole for voicing it.

Nobody NEEDS painkillers either, but we are ENTITLED to quality of life. We don’t NEED a baby, but we are ENTITLED to expand our family.

Isn’t it funny how people always like to criminalize the poor for their taxes? Nobody bitches when the US sends $20 billion in aid to Pakistan, but god FORBID tax dollars be put toward healthy American women and children.

Of course I pay taxes, but if they weren’t drained by people who feel they’re entitled to hand-outs every time they make poor financial decisions, maybe more of my tax money would go to schools, and other programs, or paying off the growing national debt.

Maybe you should read what I actually wrote. I never said anyone should harm themselves, and I pointed out that I have no problem paying for people who actually need it and have no alternatives. I see plenty of people who can’t afford kids having them anyway, and not just happening to fall on hard times while pregnant, who expect others to foot the bill.

If I want a Ferrari, you’ll pay for it, right?

That reminds me of something I read in a book. It was in the sixth book of the Anne of Green Gables series. One of her sons asked the housekeeper if babies were very expensive. She replied that some people consider babies to be luxuries but they considered them necessities. I loved that answer! (BTW, it was when Anne was pregnant with her seventh child)

According to Julie, all those women should have abortions so that caring for the babies becomes a moot point.

Her blog (linked by clicking on her username) indicates that she lives “childfree.”

Even if I wanted kids, I wouldn’t have them. You know why? Because I couldn’t afford them.

“Breeder.”

You just lost your argument.

That’s prettymuch what my point was.

Nica, it infuriates you, which is totally okay. But apparently it infuriates Julie to the point that she thinks that everyone who is on welfare should kill their babies in utero to comply with her sense of justice.

That’s fine. So long as you understand that medicaid is NOT the same as welfare. Just because you accept medicaid does not automatically mean you are on food stamps, WIC, and other form of gov’t assistance. In fact, by the stats I provided, it would be pretty sad if half of families (that do use medicaid for prenatal/maternity care) also needed other forms of gov’t assistance. Yes there are those who abuse the system. Yes it sucks. But are you really willing to force abortions on anyone who qualifies for medicaid? Even if they aren’t using any other form of assistance?

But see, Nica, the difference between your acceptable post and Julie’s unacceptable post is that you don’t wish ill to the innocent children who didn’t make any poor choices, and you understand that not everyone uses Medicaid (or any other form of government assistance) for the same reasons or with the same intent.

“and maybe even punched the OB.” Really? Assault someone because they voiced their opinion in a private conversation? Yeah, and childfree people are the hateful ones….

Oh no dear… you’ve convinced us. Any of us who have ever taken a dime of assistance for our children will go ‘abort’ them for you right now. Shouldn’t really matter that they are already here, now should it? We don’t *need* them.

You didn’t “poke a hornets nest.” You commented on a post about another woman’s pregnancy loss to express your completely irrelevant thoughts on other people’s reproductive choices. Way to go making it all about you: Your desire to express an opinion…your thoughts…your exciting ability to get people stirred up…. Way to go!

“What OP? What miscarriage? What private pain? There’s only me and my opinions here! Lookie what I can do!”

“For the crime of saying that people should make responsible decisions when it comes to reproduction and finances, as common sense would dictate, I am attacked.”

No, that’s not what you said. You said that anyone who cannot afford maternity care (or whose insurance doesn’t cover maternity care) and who gets pregnant anyway (even if it is BC failure) should have an abortion. That is offensive to anyone who believes that ALL women, regardless of race, age, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or socioeconomic level should have CHOICES in reproduction. That would be like you being forced to have kids. Would you want that? I gather you rather enjoy the fact that you have a choice in the matter.

“Here I thought that I might actually have to ensure that I could afford a horse, or do without ever having one, but now I know better.”

You’re not going to accidentally get pregnant with a horse. Well…. scratch that. I don’t know your habits…

Of course, here I say again, thank everything holy ad a few unholy that you don’t have kids. If you view them as things or chattal they’re better of not existing.

No one will deny that there are people who leech off of whatever handouts they can get. But blanket statements of such a negative nature about people on Medicaid is uncalled for. If the Dr. doesn’t like “enabling” women on Medicaid, he/she could choose not to accept Medicaid patients–there are plenty that make that choice.

I don’t think anyone made an assumption except those people who are invested in looking down on other people wherever there is an opportunity.

This site is for posting about crappy things that crappy health care workers say. It was crappy for that OB to say such a thing no matter what s/he thought privately. IT IS UNPROFESSIONAL to go around in the workplace talking shit about other people, especially when they are your patients! Maybe if the OB spent more time consoling the mother and talking to her as one human being to another, s/he might learn something.

As a teacher I saw lots of other teachers talk about students in this way and it made my stomach turn. Even if I agreed with them…you can’t expect that you are not going to be overheard. Just. shut. it. and when you go home you can rail to your significant other about all the breeders leeching off the system. Gah.

I don’t care if she was abusing the system. I still cannot understand how that would make it okay for her baby to die. This conversation so does not belong here and I hope the OP hasn’t read it.

How very american to assume that someone worse off than you is doing something “bad”…

Don’t go making so much sense You’ll confuse the hell out of the troll…

So my friends that were using both a condom and birth control while working and going to school full time should have aborted their unplanned baby?

What, exactly, does MEDICAID for MATERNITY CARE have to do with feeding one’s baby?

Theres an easy way to fix that, if you dont want your taxes to go to welfare recipients, stop paying taxes!

Ironically, when Consumer Reports evaluated condom effectiveness, they found that the two brands that are distributed by Planned Parenthood were the least effective brands. Even the most effective brands have an “in use failure rate” of about 20% per year…which means a typical couple using condoms can expect an unplanned pregnancy once every 5 years.

You really ought to blame your congressmen for that. While allowing rich people to pay no taxes, they want deep cuts to medicaid funding. Know why they cut out childless adults? No money. It goes to the most needy. Sick parents lead to kids in bad shape, so that’s why they are last on the list to get medicaid.

I wish every needy person could have medicaid, but the anger in this case is misdirected. Poor people aren’t sucking up the resources just because, there aren’t enough resources to go around because they’re being mismanaged.

Ummm…sorry to break up your pity party, but it isn’t just “childless adults” who have difficulty getting medical assistance. It is ALL adults. Children can get medical assistance fairly easily because they are considered innocent victims…but adults generally have to be well under the poverty level before they can get medical assistance. Even my learning disabled sister who collects Social Security Disability payments and will NEVER be able to get a job that includes medical insurance (she does work part time at a light manufacturing job that pays $9/hr…that is about the best she can ever aspire to) was cut off from medical assistance about 3 years ago.

EXACTLY. The only reason a 22 year old, sterilized, child”free”, angry individual would visit a forum about obstetrician comments is to TROLL. The number of times it posts here doesn’t make it legitimate; don’t feed it.

Well said.

So sorry for your loss OP.

Yes, if you can’t afford babies you should try preventing them. But even meticulously applied birth control does not work 100% of the time. So are you in the same camp that we should force abortions on people because you don’t think they should have their babies?

My friend tried to get pregnant for 5 years in one relationship and it didn’t happen. When she was in a new relationship they used condoms perfectly and they got pregnant with twins. What now? Should she really have to abort her children because her birth control failed? Ludicrous.

I find it ironic that people who have fertility issues and resort to IVF at age 38 are always people who have been on long-term hormonal contraception, have had at least 2 abortions (be they medical or surgical) because they wanted to protect their career and medical insurance, and have had more than one partner. BTW, Im FAR from opposed to adoption, but I believe abortion is just plain evil.

KAS, thank you for sharing. i’m sorry for what you went through – losing an unplanned pregnancy can be very hard emotionally with conflicting feelings and all that go with it. the last thing you needed was this crap judgement from your doctor… or annonymous people on the internet for that matter.

My heart goes out to you because I too got pregnant at a time that was not the best, dispite using birth control AND having PCOS. I found out on my birthday and earlier that day my bf broke it off with me. We were living together at the time and I was packing my stuff to leave anyway (we were having a very rough spot) and the packing + stress is what we think made me lose the baby. I lost him/her on thanksgiving a week later. It was still heartbreaking, even though I had no support at the time. Birth control isn’t 100%. I wish people would think about that before assuming and opening their mouths. My condolences to you about your loss. This ass of a dr had no right to say that anyway, but especially within earshot of his patient. Thank you for going after him. He deserves whatever punishment they give him.

KAS, thank you for sharing your story and for having the courage to hold the OB accountable. I truly hope he can improve himself personally and professionally.

AS for the totally self-absorbed commenters who saw your story as an excuse to spout off about their favorite cause — and as absolutely nothing else, especially not the situation of a real human being– well, my feeling is they don’t deserve a response. You don’t have to justify yourself, your birth control, or your financial situation at all. Those people– probably all here from the same Online Troll Club, brought over by the first annoying narcissist who posted– don’t deserve your reply. I mean, it’s your choice to post the info but I think you have every right to ignore that kind of trashy behavior.

Way to go, KAS…for standing up for yourself here on MOSW *AND* at your doctor’s office!!

I am so sorry for your loss KAS. And I am also so sorry that your painful post became the sounding board for a lot of nasty people and their nasty opinions.

Thank you so much for sharing your story and I’m sorry for you loss. I also agree about the people who have the I’m better than you attitude. I truly loved this site until I posted earlier on this post because I had never in the year that I have been checking it out ever seen any judgmental jerks ok here. Well this post totally changed that. You have the right attitude and even if you did plan your baby and want that baby after you got pregnant you should not feel guilty for it! All the nay sayers obviously have things in their life they are not happy about and enjoy making others unhappy!

Good for you, KAT! Best of luck to you!!!!

Bless you for your strength and resilience, and congratulations on your son.

I was going to be done with this whole ridiculous entitlement fest, I really was. I’m even making a point to avoid all the other comments. But I will answer this comment, since someone showed it to me.

1. What makes me a troll? The fact that I said something you don’t like? Are you really so insular and defensive that you just can’t take someone saying something you don’t like? Well though, because I’m not nearly the only person who believes in personal responsibility.

2. Don’t feel sorry for me, and I won’t feel sorry for you, OK?

3. I don’t know how you got that I sound like someone who wants kids, especially since I mentioned in this thread, and others, that I don’t want kids. It turns out that having kids is completely optional and easily avoidable.

There is a LOT about parenting that I find repellent, so I opt out. You go ahead and enjoy your life, but don’t assume that I want yours. I don’t want a childed life. I even got myself fixed to avoid it – and on World Population Day.

So quit making ASSumptions.

4. I don’t have a husband. I live with my BF, who also is happily childfree. We have no use for marriage. Making ASSumptions is a mistake.

5. Babies are horrendously expensive, breastfeeding doesn’t change that. And you are aware that babies grow up, right?

Anyway, I’m above this crap. Hopefully the next time I find myself here, I can expect other posters to act like reasonable adults. MOBSW is awfully disappointing sometimes.

Can’t afford it is an “excuse”? Tell that to the neglected babies whose parents WASH disposable diapers and can’t afford a can of formula to feed their babies because they can’t even afford to live themselves.

I <3 you!

I know it varies by state and you didn’t say where you are, but in Ohio the household income can’t be above 200% of the FPL for medicaid (that is, for pregnant women or children), 185% for WIC, 130% for food stamps, for TANF (household must include at least one child or a woman who is at least 6 months pregnant, if the mother is under 18 she must be living with her parents in an approved setting to be eligable) max earning for a family of three is $980/month, which is about 60% of the FPL (adjustments can be made and it seems the calculations are rather complex, I imagine many who apply never qualify), with a five year limitation on eligibilty (total, even if not consecutive).

So, in my state anyway, WAY more people will qualify for medicaid, WIC, and/or food stamps than “welfare”. People who don’t know if they are eligable for something are encourgaed to apply anyway, so it makes sense that those applying for medicaid would also apply for everything else at the same time. Of those that applied for medicaid, how many actually qualified for WIC, food stamps, and/or TANF? Applying and qualifying are two seperate things.

Now I tend to agree that the “responsible” thing to do is not have any more kids. However, I am not comfortable forcing sterilization or abortion, and I am certainly not comfortable dismissing the death of an infant because the mother was on medicaid so you think the child deserved to die. *head explodes* I am not comfortable with a twit on the internet saying such a horrendous thing, and when it comes from a doctor and is said within earshot of the grieving mother, sorry, I can’t come up with enough explitives and derogatory terms to describe such a sorry excuse for a human being.

I should add that while I can out-anecdote you, (I’m a social worker who’s worked on the front lines of this issue), what matters in the end are not anecdotes but DATA. And the data tells us that nationally, Americans are more than *10 times* more likely to be on Medicaid than on “welfare” (i.e. TANF). Where about 4 million Americans receive TANF-based assistance (http://www.cbpp.org/research/?fa=topic&id=42), more than 50 million are on Medicaid. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-08-30-1Asafetynet30_ST_N.htm) So apparently Toni’s state isn’t the only one…

Most of the “lazy welfare queen” biases stem from both ignorance and confusing TANF with AFDC.

As to the simplistic notion that anyone can just work their way out of the poverty mess, I strongly encourage you to read “Nickel and Dimed” by Barbara Ehrenreich and “The Working Poor” by David K. Shipler. The playing field simply isn’t level enough for the Horatio Alger myth to hold any water.

The answer to poverty will require massive structural and policy changes…not finger- wagging at poor women who end up pregnant and admonishing them if they choose NOT to lie down on the exam table while a doctor crushes their offspring.

Again, the bigotry toward poor women in this thread is just disheartening.

This is what worries me…the doctor’s biases. The slippery slope is not out of reach; there’s no doubt that he treats his Medicaid patients like dirt. And you make a great point about judging families on public assistance. None of us DO know their story or how they got there.

To repeat, this country recover MUCH more money monitoring recipients of *corporate* welfare than obsessing over the mom who buys something “non-nutritious” with her food stamps or the poor woman whose birth control fails.

Considering that she is female and OB-GYNs deal with the female reproductive organs in both their pregnant and non-pregnant state she has every right to be here

*applauds*

^^ this (but from Australia).

I dream of a world with free health care for everyone.

And as a recipient of welfare for 5 of the past 6 years exclusively because of illness making me unable to work, when I fell pregnant in the middle of that few years despite my contraceptive pill, was I not ENTITLED to be pregnant?? Jackass doctors…

This. I’m Canadian too. Basic health care should be a right of every human on the planet and whether you choose children or not, maternity care is basic health care.

Amen.

That’s not really a good statistic, as it is using a very very broad definition of welfare, including both Social Security retirement benefits and unemployment, if I’m not mistaken. In the cases of both Social Security and unemployment, its at least partly self funding- that is if it were abolished that full amount wouldn’t go back into the budget for other things. The same is true for medicare (not medicaid though) Individuals pay into these programs through mandatory payroll withholding, and employers have to match at least a portion of the Social Security/Medicare withholding, plus pay into unemployment for all employees. While these. Since “welfare” is usually thought of as cash payment to people without visible means of support, I think its a bit misleading to use the term.

Sorry, I misread your post and the link you linked to and thought it was saying 59 cents on the dollar were going to welfare. Oddly enough the programs I mentioned add up to about 59 percent of the budget. Sorry about that.

For the benefit of those who think that some of the things Jenny said sarcastically are actually true…

You are sadly mistaken if you think in this economy that “jobs that cover childcare are falling off trees.”

Looking childcare for one child can easily cost about $5,000 per year (average cost is higher http://www.babycenter.com/0_how-much-youll-spend-on-childcare_1199776.bc). Assuming a woman who is staying at home and collecting “welfare” has 2 children…that would be $10,000 per year in child care costs, which would require an income of approximately $7-$8 per hour just to cover childcare costs and taxes…and have NOTHING left.

But childcare is not the only expense that working women have. Here are just a few to add on:

* travel expenses
* increased wardrobe costs
* increased food budget due to less time to coupon/plan to shop sales

So one does have to consider…how much value does having a stay at home mom give? In my case I could get a job that pays $25-30 per hour. Wow…that’s pretty nice…sign me up!, right?

Not so fast…It would be at least an hour commute from my house, and I’d be expected to work 50-60 hr work weeks so I’d be out of the house for work 65-70 hours per week. On work days I’d basically get up, get ready for work and leave for work–only briefly seeing my school aged daughters while they got ready for school–not exactly “quality time.” I’d be out of the house before my sons are out of bed. I’d be home after the rest of my family had eaten dinner, not very long before they would be off to bed. In the end, my husband and I have decided that the small amount of income I’d have left after “work expenses” are taken out is just not worth the added stress to our family, not to mention my effective absense from the family 5 days per week.

So yes, that means that our family gets “welfare” in the form of about $300 per month in foodstamps. That doesn’t mean I’m a lazy mother who has been robbed of her dignity or any of the other very colorful descriptors that Jenny used–and many people really believe.

You make my heart happy…..

<3

Basic cell phone service is often cheaper than landline service these days. If you can’t afford a cell phone, so as to stay in contact with potential employers and the outside world in general, you’re in trouble.

Ipads are often a cheaper way to access the Internet, which lets you apply for jobs and financial aid–in fact some employers only accept applications online. If you can’t get online, you’re in trouble.

How old is your Escapade? Did you buy it before your job went to Hell and your boss’s boss went to Bermuda? Should you sell it and buy a beater car that might break down tomorrow so that you don’t look too rich?

How about those nice clothes? You should look shabby and desperate when interviewing for an office job because if you look polished and professional you will not be performing poverty correctly.

Kld99, poor people do not exist in order to perform poverty correctly for your approval.

(And yes, I realize that this was almost certainly a drive-by by somebody who is convinced that they are Doing It Rite, so they will never have a trapdoor open under their lives. Keep on dreaming, kld99 and everyone like you. Unless your daddy left you a great big trust fund, you’re not immune.)