Posted by My OB said WHAT?!?.
Nov
21
Posted by My OB said WHAT?!?.
“Just Stop Feeding Him.”
“Just stop feeding him.” – Pediatrician to a mother inquiring how she could help her six month old son learn to sleep through the night.
There are 75 comments to this post.
I’m pretty sure the doctor in question meant at night and not generally to stop feeding him. While clearly the poster wasn’t a fan of the advice, it doesn’t sound outrageous to me. IF you want to sleep train a baby 6 months or older then the best way to do that is to nightwean. Simple. Many peds recommend this. I can understand NOT wanting to do that, but it’s hardly outrageous advice.
[Reply]
Nicci P Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 3:02 pm (Quote)
I think it’s more a case of HOW it was put across. “Just stop feeding him” makes it seem like this is the only option and it is a MUST. If it was phrased something like “Well, there are a few different options ranging from baby training to more gentle slow steps, lets discuss some techniques and see what you feel comfortable with”
I heard stuff like this a lot when my sons were babies. Sometimes it was finished with things like “If you don’t, they will NEVER learn to sleep on their own” which I know hasn’t been said here but as it seems to be the only technique offered it wouldn’t surprise me if this ped did come out with something like that.
[Reply]
Toni Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 3:23 pm (Quote)
What she said. Not to mention, it would be nice for the mom to hear:
“STTN is a milestone that most babies do not reach until after the age of one year. Until age one (and often until age 2) it is extremely common (and totally normal) for babies to wake at least 1-2 times a night to eat (they may well just be thirsty, heck I’m 31 and still wake up in the MOTN to get a drink of water, lol). If it is causing problems for you and you wish to maximize the amount of sleep you get you can try to feed him more often during the day (if he is willing), offer a “dream feed” after he has been asleep for a couple hours, but before you turn in for the night, and perhaps offer him some water first, sometimes they really are just thirsty. In any case, get as much rest as you can during the day, learn to nurse lying on your side, if you haven’t already, and keep him close to you at night so hopefully he won’t get frantic, and harder to put back to sleep, by the time you reach him. Some women consider night-weaning at this time, and if that is what you wish, it can help. However, some women find it reduces their supply, and many babies at this age are too distracted during the day to eat enough, so if you go that route, make certain to monitor his daytime intake closely, and be prepared for the fact that he may wean entirely.”
But, then, that would take more than 30 seconds, and would require some knowledge of (and support for) full term bfing 
[Reply]
Mama Wrench Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 4:19 pm (Quote)
This.
When I was dealing with this with my son, my ped said “Well, you can try to night wean, but he’s breastfeeding. You’re working during the day so he just wants as much of you as he can get while you’re home. Maybe just use it as an excuse to go to bed when he does and leave the dishes for dad?”
[Reply]
I really dont get why there are so many docs, nurses, midwives etc who have such a problem with breastfeeding (it sounds like this is yet another of the breastfeeding = no sleep comments)
I’ve heard so many variations on this, and other stupid breastfeeding related comments from people who should know better.
[Reply]
Well… ok he could have phrased it better. But the point remains, if she wants him to sleep through the night she needs to stop giving him a reason to wake. Now it could be done more gradually than stopping altogether, but I really don’t find this terribly offensive. Baby is in a habit and sees no reason to change, he gets plenty of sleep and gets a full tummy. Why would he want to sleep through the night? You stop giving night feeds and he learns there’s no reason to wake up for them and starts sleeping through. She wants him to sleep through the night or she wouldn’t be asking the question, so she certainly thinks he’s physically ready to stop night feeds… I don’t see the problem other than somewhat insensitive wording that could have been fixed by adding the words ‘at night’.
Now if he was telling her this on his own accord, I’d understand the negativity and people feeling like he’s anti-breastfeeding, because I know some mothers choose to nightfeed for a long time, especially co-sleepers. But SHE ASKED, what do you want him to tell her, don’t encourage baby to sleep through the night, he will learn on his own?
Maybe I’m naive, I don’t understand why so many babies and toddlers can’t sleep through the night. Sure there will always be a few that have trouble, but it seems at least half of them have trouble with it now. When we felt our baby was at an age where she was waking up for night feeds out of comfort as opposed to hunger, we stopped giving food, and just gave cuddles then put her back down, returning every 10 or so minutes to give reassurance and a short cuddle before putting her down again. After a week or so she stopped waking through the night, and now only wakes when teething (she figured out waking at night means cuddles, oops lol). She is healthy, well fed, and an extremely happy and secure baby.
It seems to me sleeping through the night is going the direction of potty training, waiting until some magical point at which the child is ready, instead of teaching it as a skill just like sitting, crawling, and saying ‘baba’. Sleeping through the night is a skill, learning to put yourself to sleep without comfort from mum is a skill.
[Reply]
Dreamy Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 3:57 pm (Quote)
I’m not sure where to start.
Let’s see if I understand you correctly.
-Babies learned to eat at night because moms taught them to, and now moms need to break that habit. This is much the same as how babies learned to pee in their diapers.
-Parents also teach children the skills of crawling, saying “baba” and sitting. Kind of how parents teach children the skill of using their hands to grasp things, or how to chew and swallow.
-Skills can be taught to and learned by children at any time– no need to wait until some magical point at which the child is ready. Thus we should waste no time in teaching an infant how to cook.
No?
[Reply]
abba12 Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 6:19 pm (Quote)
- babies need food at night in the first few months, but after that it’s no longer a nececity, it is habit and comfort, much like a child who sucks their thumb long after they ‘need’ the comfort and sensation of sucking as an infant.
- We do teach them how to grasp, and how to chew. We spend a lot of time passing them things, and they see us grab all sorts of things and learn by watching. They would teach themselves to grab if in a room alone where no one grabs anything ever, but I’ll bet it would take longer. We teach them to chew by offering something they needn’t chew at all, then very small lumps and so it goes, gradually adding the different elements of chewing such as texture, tounge movement, force. you can’t just give a baby a piece of steak.
- We should waste no time teaching an infant how to cook. However, we need to start at the most basic lessons first. To cook, she will first need to know how to stand at the counter and how to manouver a utensil, as well as identify different foods and tastes. That’s what we’re working on now. Once she masters that we’ll move onto food identification and placing things in the right areas. She’s learning to cook, but all must be done in order, again I say, you can’t give a baby a piece of steak.
[Reply]
Toni Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 10:09 am (Quote)
“..again I say, you can’t give a baby a piece of steak.”
Funny you are so adament about that point. My grandfather (the generation you seem to be so fond of, lol) DID give steak to his babies. There they would be in the highchair (maybe 4-6 mos old), and he would cut a piece of his steak large enough that they were unable to put the whole thing in thier mouths, and he let them chew on it and suck on it (obviously not unsupervised). According to my mom (the oldest of 8, so she actually witnessed this a number of times) the babies absolutely LOVED it! They got the flavor of steak and got to soothe potentially aching gums (and got a good source of iron to boot). So, yeah, you can give steak to a baby. And if you’ve never heard of “baby-led solids” maybe you should google it…. you don’t need to give babies mushy pastes of cereal and veg in order for them to learn to eat. I didn’t bother with that with my second child (who has the time? lol). We went straight to “table foods” (obviously starting with the softest ones, but still).
[Reply]
Nicci P Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 3:08 pm (Quote)
Was just going to say this. I’m a vegetarian so didn’t give my babies steak but I DID wait til they showed signs of readiness, eg able to sit up unaided, able to grasp the food properly, and then gave them cooked veg sticks or fresh fruit. Baby led weaning worked great for my family.
[Reply]
Holly Reply:
November 27th, 2011 at 7:43 pm (Quote)
I am like your grandfather I guess.. we do Baby Led Weaning so my youngest didn’t do ANY solids until 8 months.. he wasn’t ready before that. I tried. He rejected. He was literally walking before he ate solids lol!! 
I have a photo and some video of him at nine months old walking over to the table where my food was, grabbing my steak off the plate with both hands and munching away… with four teeth!! Instead of flipping out and taking the steak I grabbed the ever-ready-camera ROFL:) He munched to his little hearts content, put it back and walked away.
He is now TWO. He still nurses (full term nursing for the win!!!!:) ), he wakes up at night to go pee, he nurses back to sleep and often nurses from 1am to wake up time. He also nurses to sleep for all naps and during his nap.. and several other times during the day. *I* don’t sleep through the night, I wake up for roughly an hour every night. In fact, most folks DO! It’s normal!!! BTW.. My four year old doesn’t sleep through the night either!! He falls asleep in the living room with his baby brother and when they wake up in the night they go pee and come to bed. (No coming into the family bed without peeing, hubs and I have woke up in puddles too often ROFL!!).
[Reply]
Jennifer Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 5:53 pm (Quote)
Actually steak was one of my daughter’s first foods. She didn’t swallow any of it, but she sure did enjoy sucking on it and swallowing the good juices. I never gave my daughter any baby food. She’s always had table foods. I just waited until she was ready.
Also, it doesn’t matter if you think this post is offensive. The OP thought it was and that is why it was submitted. HTH!
[Reply]
Heather Reply:
November 25th, 2011 at 6:42 pm (Quote)
Um, ignoring all the other things just utterly wrong with everything you’ve said here, I have an 8 day old baby who grasped my hair the day she was born and held on like a freaking lemur. How did I manage to teach her that so quickly? All I’d done was lie there and stare into her beautiful eyes until that moment!
And FYI, until you’re telepathic, don’t pretend to know how someone who is nonverbal feels. Just because a baby has stopped crying for what they need doesn’t make the need go away.
And yeah, you don’t teach a baby to chew (or any other reflex). That is unbelievably egotistical/narcissistic of you to say.
[Reply]
Toni Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 4:31 pm (Quote)
You do have a point that the mother in question solicited the advice, so in some ways, since asking a pediatrician for parenting advice (and, at 6 mos, STTN is a parenting issue, not a medical one) you take your chances. You may get excellent advice, you may get craptacular advice. You can’t really get angry that the pediatrician didn’t give you the parenting advice you were hoping for – they are not experts at parenting. That being said…
“I don’t understand why so many babies and toddlers can’t sleep through the night. ”
Because it is not developmentally normal for a young infant to STTN. That’s like saying “I don’t understand why so many babies and toddlers can’t tie their own shoes”. It seems to be a bigger problem for bf babies (not that I blame bfing) because bf babies can’t carry their bottle around with them during the day, eating while entertaining themselves and exploring the world. They have to stop what they are doing, curl up in mom’s lap, and eat. Around 4-10 mos is a particularly distractable time (they don’t want to stop expliring to eat), and since at those ages they aren’t getting many, if any, solids, you will naturally see an increase in nighttime feedings. If they aren’t eating as much during the day, they will NEED to make up for it at night. And really, that’s my main issue with this doc’s advice – he didn’t encourage her to nurse more during the day and offer tips to encourage a distractable baby to eat (go to a dark, private room, with little stimulation if at all possible, offer the breast frequently, wear a necklace or colorful scarf that the child can entertain him/herself with, etc) or encourage her to slowing night wean so he gets used to the new arrangement over time. If she just cuts this child off cold turkey at night, without increasing his daytimes feedings, not only will her supply plummet, but he may end up with issues with growth/development.
Hell, sometimes just being told – “This is normal, babies at this age are supposed to wake at night” can make her feel better. Many mothers stress that baby isn’t sleeping at night because everyone around them are telling them “OMIGOD she STILL isn’t STTN!!!???!!eleventy!! You have to DOOOOO SOOOMETHIIINNNGGG!!!” And she just really needs to hear that 1. This too shall pass, 2. It’s totally normal, appropriate, and not something to freak about, and 3. She is doing nothing wrong. But then she meets abba12 who can’t understand why her 4 month old isn’t walking yet Why don’t you TEACH HER DAMMIT!!
“It seems to me sleeping through the night is going the direction of potty training, waiting until some magical point at which the child is ready…”
LOL. Yes, God forbid we wait until the child is ready to attempt a new skill. I suppose I should start teaching my 5 year old to drive now. Wouldn’t want her to be behind the curve
Snarkiness aside, what is wrong with waiting until a child shows signs of readiness? What is gained by trying to force something a kid isn’t ready for? Then you end up in a power struggle and there is a LOT more stress and aggravation (on both sides) than is needed. In your case, your child was apparently ready to STTN (you didn’t mention how old she was when you did this or if she was ff or bf?). Not every infant can do that. Especially at 6 months. That’s really pretty early to STTN (and not just the medical definition of a five hour stretch sometime between 10pm and 5 am, but a good 8-10 hours). What is to be gained by forcing?
“…instead of teaching it as a skill just like sitting, crawling, and saying ‘baba’.”
Okay. I gotta know. HOW did you teach your kid those things? Did you physically demonstrate multiple times a day? Give daily lectures? Diagrams? Really, because I don’t see how you *could* teach those things, and particularly teach them before the kid is developmentally ready. At what age did your child sit up? Crawl? Say her first word? I assume since you “taught” her these things that she did it earlier than any child would ever be expected to do so, correct? Do you realize how silly this sounds?
“Sleeping through the night is a skill, learning to put yourself to sleep without comfort from mum is a skill.”
No, juggling is a skill. STTN is a develomental milestone. Everyone will be able to do it, yes you can encourage it, but pushing it before the child is ready is foolish, a waste of time and energy, and in some ways, cruel (depending on the method).
[Reply]
abba12 Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 6:40 pm (Quote)
I resent your implications regarding formula feeding as allowing the child to sip a bottle all day and not cuddling with mum. My child was never allowed to carry her bottle with her, and I or my husband always hold her while feeding her. I was unable to breastfeed because of nurses sabotaging my efforts, but mine too was pulled away from things to eat.
I’ve not heard it said by many people that babies aren’t supposed to sleep through the night at that age. In Australia to my knowlege it’s still considered that a baby will sleep a 5 or 6 hour stretch at 2mo for FF and 3mo for BF. As for sleeping a 12 hour night, that varies, but that’s not what I, or I suspect this mother, was talking about.
The problem with waiting until a child shows readiness is children in diapers when they start the first grade. Now just to make it clear I’m not into infant EC or anything, just toilet training the way our grandmothers did it, and succeeded at doing it. A child may never show signs of being ‘ready’ because by the time they are, diapers have become a comfort and crutch.
Do you wait until your child is ready to teach them to read, or do you expect they’ll begin to learn to read in the first grade. There are people who wait until their children are ready in homeschooling circles, my brother in law didn’t learn to read until he was 10. Is that ok, or does this only apply to babies?
We ALL teach our babies these things, naturally. We talk to them, say bababa to them, and they eventually begin trying to repeat what we say. We sit them up, propped against something, and help them balance. For crawling many parents DO get on their hands and knees, and we move those little arms and knees in the right way, hoping baby will copy. My bub got the hands but couldn’t get her knees going so I physically moved them for her, and she learnt that was what she was supposed to do. Now I regularly stand her up, helping her to balance, and I move with her as she takes little steps with support. We teach our babies, it’s normal, it’s natural. Babies see us and do as we do. Problem is babies can’t see us sleeping through the night, especially when we wake as they do. Babies often don’t see us use the bathroom throughout the day until they’re much older.
I don’t see teaching her to STTN as a waste of time and energy, in fact it saves both. She and I both get the sleep we need, giving us more energy in the mornings without having to go to bed very early or sleep in very late. On the other hand I see a family friend who still gets up 3 times a night to breastfeed her one year old, she’s exhausted, she’s depressed and she dosen’t want another baby despite having originally planned on it. Her baby screams if she tries to refuse a feed because it’s so set in it’s ways and wants the comfort and she dosen’t dare refuse because, these days, it’s considered akin to child abuse to let a child cry.
The things I’m talking about here were NORMAL two or three generations ago, my grandparents, maybe your great grandparents as an american, would be astounded and confused by these ideas, as would many of their parents before them. But their children grew up pretty ok.
No I haven’t given age anywhere here, because every baby is different, and comparing babies is never a good idea. My bub was early on some things, late on others, and that’s ok. Plus I don’t feel like being judged because she was TOO early or late in things.
[Reply]
Rosemary Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 11:37 pm (Quote)
Hey, not wanting to get into a flame war here, but as the mother of an Australian baby and the mother of an American baby, there is no difference in the recommendations as to what a biologically normal breastfed baby will do.
Don’t assume that your experience of Australian parenting is the norm. It is just your experience.
Also, your assumption that a 3 month old BF baby is expected to sleep 5-6 hours is incorrect. Some babies do, some babies don’t. It is dependent on milk storage capacity of breasts, sucking efficiency of baby, stomach size of baby, metabolism of baby. All things going well, most mothers make enough milk for their babies in a 24 hour period. It is just that some mother / baby pairs have different needs when it comes to getting that milk from the mothers breasts to the baby’s stomach.
I refuse to get into the STTN debate, other than to say that many of our grandparents were absolutely miserable, upset and defeated by the need to fit into all the societal norms. They may have put on a brave face, but all the mothers of those babies that didn’t fit the societal norms, hid it and pretended. How do I know? In my role as a parent educator, I now hear from the mothers and the grandmothers just how much the good old days, weren’t really good old days.
I love your commitment to teaching your children. Children know when their parents are committed and love them, and it sounds like that is just what you are. (Being truly serious! Not snarky at all! Love and respect is the most important thing.)
[Reply]
Mama Wrench Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 2:00 am (Quote)
Just seconding here, all of the research I’ve done said that 10 months is when babies, FF OR BF, should be expected to be developmentally ready to sleep through the night. If mom is working and BFing, or if baby has reverse-cycled or had a major growth spurt which has since slowed, THEN I would suspect it’s more behavioral than developmental, but not before at least 8 months.
Considering that this is also near when the risk of SIDS drops most significantly, it makes sense to me that babies would still be developmentally dependent upon a regular wake-sleep cycle at night. It keeps them safe and reassures mom that all is well. It’s not so much a matter of whether they’re eating when they wake up at that point. Some babies will STILL need to wake up if for no other reason than to reset their internal clocks.
[Reply]
Toni Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 8:13 am (Quote)
“I resent your implications regarding formula feeding as allowing the child to sip a bottle all day and not cuddling with mum. ”
There was no implication there. I only said that it is possible for a ff baby to take his bottle with him; boobs are not detachable. Since many ffing parents view “holding his own bottle” as a milestone, don’t tell me that ffers never let thier kid carry the bottle with them, or even just let the kid face outward while sitting on mom/dad’s lap so he can see what’s going on. Those things are simply not possible with bfing. There is no “implication”. If you don’t see yourself in that description, cool. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
Now, you are apparently talking about the medical definition of “STTN” (5 hours, sometime between 10pm and 5am); I was speaking more about expecting consistent 6-8 hour stretches. However, the medical “STTN” usually doesn’t occur until 9-10 mos (not sure where you got 3 mos??!). A 3 mo old baby’s stomach is tiny; in the first 3 mos it is super unusual to go more than 4 hours (and if they do, that is typically the longest stretch they go all day (as in a 24 hour period)).
As for our grandmothers, well, all I can say is that becoming a mother taught me that I was entirely correct in my beliefs when I was 14. I knew then that parents are full of it, and I know it now People exaggerate. People forget. If you are listening to an 80 year old woman who hasn’t had to nighttime parent in 50 years, don’t you think it’s possible that she has forgotten what it’s really like? As for our peers, a lot of people see these things as “competition” and exaggerate their “success”.
Not to mention many (most?) of our grandmothers, and mothers, ff. It does make a difference – you were comfortable denying your child food at night, I suspect because you knew exactly how many oz she got during the day. With a bf baby you have no idea how many oz they got. You can encourage them to nurse more often, you can try to minimize distractions so they nurse longer, but I know I wasn’t at all comfortable denying an infant food when I had no way of knowing if she had gotten the “right” amount during the day. I had to trust her to tell me when she was hungry and go with it. The nice thing, tho, is that I didn’t have to do much to feed her (no bottles to prep, I only had to lift my shirt and latch her on). I have noticed that those who seem most preoccupied with STTN by certain ages are ffers. It makes sense…
Now, your examples of not potty training until first grade and not reading until age 10 are extremes. That’s not simply waiting for readiness, that is expecting the child to teach him/herself. So I won’t bother dignifying that.
As for “teaching” them to talk, you don’t need to coach them. Simply talking to them like a normal person is sufficient. Their brains are hardwired to learn language. So, no, I never sat there like a parrot on crack asking them to “say baba” or anything else for that matter. Crawling isn’t a recognized milestone (at least not the traditional hands-and-knees crawling you describe). The milestone is horizontal movement across the floor by some means by 10 mos (that may be crawling, or rolling, or scooting). My kids required no coaching, I just gave them opportunity. They both accomplished this “on time” without me “making” them do it. Walking didn’t require any special effort on my part either. All by themselves they started pulling themselves up, cruising, and walking well within “normal” time frames. Now, yes, in interacting with them, playing with them, and them observing us in normal day to day activities they will learn these things, but they do not need to be formally “taught”. No special effort is needed. That’s kind of the difference between a milestone and a skill. Milestones will be achieved unless you actively discourage them (barring developmental delays for medical reasons). Skills do need to be taught. STTN is not a “skill”, it’s a milestone. But that may be where we simply have to agree to disagree. I think it will happen on it’s own, with little, if any, formal “teaching”. You seem to think it will never happen unless it is forced/actively encouraged.
“On the other hand I see a family friend who still gets up 3 times a night to breastfeed her one year old, she’s exhausted, she’s depressed and she dosen’t want another baby despite having originally planned on it. ”
Has she tried cosleeping? Makes nighttime parenting much easier. We do tend to make things harder on ourselves than they need to be. Maybe the baby screams because it is genuinely hungry…
“No I haven’t given age anywhere here, because every baby is different, and comparing babies is never a good idea. My bub was early on some things, late on others, and that’s ok. Plus I don’t feel like being judged because she was TOO early or late in things.”
So, teaching doesn’t really effect much then. You said it yourself – despite your actively “teaching” her things, your baby was “early on some things, late on others”. She followed her OWN schedule. She did things when SHE was ready (whether you liked it or not ). And this is all I’m saying. You can encourage. You can hope. You can give opportunities for success. But you cannot force, and “teaching” won’t have an impact on the child if the child isn’t already ready already. This is all I’ve been saying. “Teaching” a child who isn’t ready to learn is an exercise in futility. Better to save your time and energy for things you actually do have control over
[Reply]
Toni Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 9:35 am (Quote)
First of all, there was no ‘implication’ in my post. The simple fact is that bottles are portable, breasts are not detachable. And I’ve known many ffers who view ‘holding their own bottle’ as some sort of milestone, so, while maybe you personally didn’t let your baby hold her own bottle, a lot of people actively encourage that. That does allow the bottle fed baby freedom to explore while eating, if the parent allows it. If you do not meet that description, cool, but some people do.
The medical definition of STTN (one 5 hour stretch) isn’t usually achieved until around 9-10 mos. I’m not sure where you got 3 mos (??!!); a 3 mo old has a tiny stomach and it is unusual to go more than four hours between feedings (and that will only happen once a day, if it happens at all).
Reading is a poor example of a “milestone” since it is not, in fact, a milestone at all. Literacy is a skill that needs to be actively taught. So while you do need to wait until your child is ready to start teaching them, it does still need to be taught. You don’t learn to read by being read to, or by observing others reading, or even out of natural curiosity; you need to learn the letters, the sounds they make, both alone and in certain combinations, you need to learn the “rules” (‘I before E, except after C…’ etc). That is different than learning to talk, which is simply accomplished by listening to others talk; no formal instruction is required.
With potty training, readiness is essential. Those who try to force it early will just be doing it longer If you wait until your child has the vocabulary (can say potty or poopy/peepee), recognizes the urge to go, has the ability to hold it, and is physically able to walk to the bathroom and pull down his/her pants, you are going to have a much easier time (and won’t spend nearly as many weeks/months training). But if you try to push it before the child is developmentally ready, you frustrate the child, you frustrate yourself, and the child may very well decide that they *aren’t* going to do it (and let’s face it, you can’t force someone to pee if they don’t want to, not without resorting to abuse). Waiting until first grade is not waiting for readiness, it is waiting beyond readiness. Personally I wonder how many of those who waited until first grade waited at all… maybe they tried to force it too soon (and didn’t back off when the child let them know he wasn’t ready), and now they have a child who simply refuses because he is locked in a power struggle, even though he IS ready.
As for our grandmothers, well, when I was 14 I knew parents were full of it, and becoming a parent has only reinforced that belief People exaggerate. People forget. An 80 year old woman who hasn’t had to nighttime parent in 50 years may not remember perfectly. And many people seem to view STTN (and many other milestones) as competition – they exaggerate their successes.
Keep in mind our grandmothers mostly ff. I imagine that you were comfortable denying your infant food during the night because you were able to see how much she was getting during the day and knew that it was “enough”. Bfing mothers cannot see how many oz their child gets. I was not comfortable denying my infants food any time of the day. Breastmilk was their sole source for 6 months, and their primary source for over a year. I had to trust them to tell me when they were hungry, and go with it. The upside is that feeding was super easy (I coslept, so I could just lift my shirt and latch on, I felt very rested).
As for “teaching” them to achieve milestones, well, that seems like a contradiciton in terms to me. Milestones are achieved without formal instruction. They are “learned” by simple observation/mimicking, and by natural curiosity. Parrotting “say baba” over and over is entirely unnecessary (no harm in it of course, but unnecessary nonetheless); speaking to your child normally is enough. A child will “learn” to crawl/pull up/cruise/walk out of sheer curiosity (desire to get to the other side of the room/see what’s on that table/get to that interesting looking dish of dogfood ). Yes, playing with them develops gross motor skills, but no formal “teaching” of these things is needed.
“My bub was early on some things, late on others, and that’s ok.”
And that is DESPITE your attempts at “teaching” her. That’s my point. She did things when SHE was ready, on her OWN timetable. And that is how milestones (as opposed to skills) work. Everyone “learns” to STTN eventually. Gentle encouragement may help, but no amount of “teaching” will get a child to do it before he/she is ready. “Sleep training” really just teaches them to give up. And most of the mothers I’ve know who “trained” their infants to STTN ended up with toddlers and preschoolers who were up and out of their rooms several times a night and had issues being put to sleep in the first place. Those who were more gentle about it and followed their babies’ cues, while those babies didn’t STTN until later ages, once they did STTN on their own it “stuck”; they weren’t having issues at age 2,3,4 and 5…
As for your friend, maybe her baby screams because he is hungry She could try cosleeping; often we make things more difficult on ourselves than they need to be. And gently nightweaning a one year old is a different animal than nightweaning a 6 mo, for whom bm is still the primary (if not sole) source of nutrition.
“I don’t see teaching her to STTN as a waste of time and energy, in fact it saves both. ”
If she’s not ready it IS a waste. It won’t work and you set her up for sleep issues later. If you are bfing you may risk your supply and/or her health and well being. Few bf 6 month olds are ready to STTN, and I’d go out on a limb and say NONE are ready to be nightweaned (bfing experts do not recommend night weaning until *at least* one year of age). You can encourage her to eat more during the day in the hope that her longest stretch of sleep (be it 3,4, or 5+ hours) happens at night, you can cosleep (maybe start the night in the crib, if you are more comfortable with that, moving her to your bed at the first waking) to maximize everyone’s sleep, but if the child is not ready forcing her will only cause more issues. Often just changing our expectations and being more aware of what is “normal” helps
[Reply]
Toni Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 9:37 am (Quote)
Sorry for two posts saying basically the same thing, lol: I didn’t notice the ‘your comment is awaiting moderation’ and thought my first response just didn’t go thru. Haven’t had any await moderation since the first time I posted here, lol.
[Reply]
Heather Reply:
November 25th, 2011 at 6:47 pm (Quote)
*cough* Did need to say, on the potty training bit… Elimination Communication. I’ve never ‘trained’ my kids and really didn’t have that much to do with them learning to use a toilet, other than giving them access and showing them how to use it. Both so far were using it consistently by 18 months. (I do agree with not forcing it, but ‘readiness’ is really such a broad term and there’s no such thing as ‘too early’ for using a potty with assistance)
[Reply]
Elaine Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 8:13 pm (Quote)
My hypoplastic breasts were not capable of producing enough milk just in the day-time to supply my growing baby with enough nutrients to last him all night. I guess I should’ve switched to formula (or child abuse) and force-fed him increasing amounts of formula and unhealthy solids so he’d sleep through the night before 12 months (5 hrs) and sleep through entirely with rare wakenings before 18 months… Mind you he didn’t exactly break records with his growth.. he stayed steady but he was never a chunker at all.
And, instead of encouraging him to fully potty train at 25 months (which he did) I should’ve totally hit him with a rod like my Grandma hit my uncles/mom so he would’ve potty trained a few months before that! Because, I was too easy on him, with my watching for eagerness to try and constant encouragement.. Yep. Me = modern parent who TOTALLY doesn’t know what I missed. And honestly? I don’t. want. to. know. My family has issues with talking about their bodies, too. I again, do not want to know what I am missing.
Have you ever considered that maybe if your child took to your parenting style easily and did things early, then that was that your child took to it easily and was going to do things early and not that it was anything you really did ? lol Some kids just .. reach milestones earlier. Or grow an inch before another one does. Etc. It doesn’t say anything about parenting.
And.. what is the difference? What difference does it make? I can see if a mom is losing her mind waking up every hour still at 6 months perhaps limiting the number of nursings or looking into a supply or access issue or the need to supplement issue.. but if she’s being awoken just every few hours to nurse for 10-20 mins or so (which compared to waking every hour to nurse for 45 minutes.. is not waking up much)? How do you know the baby isn’t hungry or thirsty .. ? How would you know unless you started to see a decrease in wet diapers or growth?! Why not just let them eat?
I actually wake up at least once for a drink at night and sometimes for a snack and I’m 25 years old with a huge stomach in comparison and ample fat reserves in comparison.. and my food is not as easily digested and my energy use is not as efficient and my skin is not as good a moisture-loss barrier! I’m very skinny though, if that helps point out something. My mouth is usually dry, I usually really do “need” a drink, at least for my physical comfort (is physical comfort unimportant?) and if I wake up hungry and ignore it I feel shakey til my body starts to burn its fat. Oh yes, let’s make the babies SKINNY!! ? I mean yeah, if they just play with the breast and don’t really nurse. Obviously they are ready to not nurse at night at least for the time being, maybe til the next growth spurt or if they get distracted.. But, who says they don’t kinda need to play with that breast, to feel comforted, at least til 1? And.. I definitely wouldn’t just stop offering to nurse, particularly not before 1. Maybe I’m naive too, but what the hell is the harm in nursing at night on demand til a baby is 1?
If you were a bottle-feeder, that changes things a little bit.. but not as much as you’d think. Not as much as you imply.
I understand that you made night-waking equated with comfort vs. food, but, that does not mean your kid was never thirsty or hungry and she just gave up that she’d get a drink or snack. I’m not saying it was horrific, but I can’t understand how it helped anything with her development.
I think babies COULD learn to not wake up at 6 months at night.. but I also think babies COULD learn that right into failure to thrive or breastfeeding failure or waaayyy too early weaning.. I think it is best to just consider want=need until babies are at least 1. I suppose that is just my opinion. It’s my very strong opinion, though.
[Reply]
Elaine Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 8:21 pm (Quote)
Oh and, I do not equate formula use with child abuse at all even a tiny little bit. It’s the force-feeding or ignoring or smacking the baby for being hungry (my Grandma was a good Christian.. kinda crappy mom though). Apologies for any confusion.
[Reply]
Angie Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 12:00 pm (Quote)
I just wanted to say that I do understand what you are saying about how potty training has changed. I really do believe (not as a conspiracy theory or something), that diaper companies, which are owned by HUGE corporations, are getting a lot of publications out there about the “dangers” of pushing potty training too soon. I personally think it is ridiculous.
We put our son on the potty (the toilet with a smaller potty seat), from when he was about 9 months old. If he peed, we cheered. If not, we carried on with our night time ritual. Not a big deal. From there, he was always very comfortable sitting on the toilet and never felt pressured by us to go, but he gradually learned that when he sat, he released the pee. It was simple, no stress, and he learned early. It’s been proven that children can physically control their bowels by 18 months. So I don’t see anything wrong with potty training early. As long as you’re not freaking out your children about it. We expect children to start solids at around 6 months, but we are the ones who give them the food. We should be the ones who offer them the potty, too!
[Reply]
Toni Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 4:59 pm (Quote)
I think a lot of it has to do with the super absorbant diapers that are standard issue these days. Even in my mother and grandmother’s days disposables (for those who actually used them) weren’t as absorbant as today’s diapers. I have noticed that kids who are cloth diapered tend to potty train earlier. It makes sense – it’s hard to associate the urge to pee with the consequence of feeling wet when you don’t feel wet until you’ve peed several times, lol. With my older daughter I ended up having to just make the switch to regular underwear (pull ups at night) in order for her to make the connection and be willing to go on the pot. There were a few days of frequent accidents, but she caught on within a week, and was fully PT (including at night) within a couple of months. I think with my two year old I’ll be doing that a lot sooner, lol, but then she has a different personality and has already had way more successes than my oldest had at this age (having a big sister to copy helps a bit I think ).
[Reply]
Angie Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 5:36 pm (Quote)
Yes, the development of the super-absorbent diapers probably does factor in. I just think all these articles from the “experts” that are scaring parents into potty training early are not good! It does take longer to train early, yes, but it’s more of a gradual change than bringing in the potty training at age 3 or something. I don’t look at a child who is two and not potty-trained and think, “What a horrible mother!” I mean, everyone can make their own decisions, obviously. But I just think putting off potty training for fear of emotionally disturbing your child is just silly. Like I said, just don’t threaten to beat them if they make a mistake or something extreme.
To be honest, I actually find it a bit of a pain to have a potty-trained toddler, since I HAVE to take him whenever he needs to go (usually right in the middle of grocery shopping.) Sometimes it would be nice to say, “Just pee in your diaper. I’ll change it later!”
[Reply]
Debra Reply:
November 23rd, 2011 at 10:07 pm (Quote)
I’m going to chime in here even though I know I’ll get slammed. I’ve done childcare for so many families who tell me their babies and toddlers won’t take naps and the kids are running around with dark circles under their eyes, fussing and crying all the time and they don’t sleep well at night because they’re sleep deprived.
It only takes a few days to sleep train the average toddler. When parents come home to a sleeping baby it’s like “Oh my god! How did you do that?”
I think there’s been an overemphasis on child led development. It’s too easy to misinterpret what a very young child is trying to tell you. Fussing doesn’t always mean the child needs to be fed or picked up. Sometimes it means the child needs to be left alone for awhile so they can settle down and fall asleep. (I’m not talking about letting a baby cry all day.)
Parents have to use their own judgment, but every time someone tells me their otherwise healthy 2 year old never takes a nap or sleeps through the night, I have to bite my tongue and just hope they’ll ask for help.
[Reply]
Toni Reply:
November 24th, 2011 at 10:15 am (Quote)
No slamming Yes, a *toddler* can be “sleep trained” with just a little effort. Some will take a few days, some maybe a few weeks, but they are at an age where it is developmentally appropriate. The OP (and certainly abba12) was speaking of a young infant (6 months or younger). That’s a whole different ball game, at least IMO. Yes, if a child is obviously sleep deprived they may need help “learning” to sleep. but that’s different than a 3 month old baby waking a few times a night to eat or get a fresh diaper.
[Reply]
When DH was deployed my son & I went to live w/ my inlaws. At 9mos I asked the doc for advice on how to help him sleep better at night and was told to stop BFing him. I pretty much stopped listening to any advice he gave me after that. I would go in to do the required check ups and leave as soon as I could.
[Reply]
holly Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 4:48 am (Quote)
but I bet your baby didn’t sleep through the night either.
[Reply]
Holly Reply:
November 27th, 2011 at 8:03 pm (Quote)
A different Holly chiming in here lol…
Just wanted to point out.. It took me until baby #6 to realize……. those are not “required” check ups! You don’t HAVE to go to the dr! We simply chose to stop going to the dr and now only go when there is an illness or injury that can’t be treated at home. AND.. most of those illnesses CAN be treated at home! We haven’t been to the dr since there were concerns about speech delays. THEN the dr turned us down and wouldn’t help. I found a new dr that would do an eval, got him into speech therapy and have been fine since.. So different than my friends (I have two that come quickly to mind) who call the dr and schedule an appt EVERY SINGLE time the kid sneezes, sniffles or coughs. It’s sad, unnecessary and a drain on the system 
It fills up the drs lists so that when there is a child who NEEDS in they can’t get in! Don’t feel like you *have* to take your little one in to the dr if you don’t see a need. They are NOT *required*!!
[Reply]
Well, sure. Because a hungry baby is so much more pleasant than a full baby!
I understand what the doctor was trying to say in the sense that the baby might sleep better through the night if the mother trained him not to eat at night. But at six months old, some babies really NEED a nighttime feeding! It’s not a one size fits all kind of scenario. Above all else, it was a really stupid way to word this “advice.”
[Reply]
This one was mine.
I asked this at my son’s 6 month check up because he was going to bed at 8pm, and waking at 12, 3, and 6 to be fed. I work full time, and pump full time (he NEVER latched). When I told the doctor that we fed our son when he woke up hungry he gave me the above quote.
He went on to explain that if he woke up hungry, and we refused to feed him, he would stop waking up hungry. Because THAT makes sense!?
I hated the tone the doctor took at this check up; it was like I was a total moron and should have innately known that by six months I should not be feeding my son at night at all. Which I don’t understand and the doctor never explained.
But for a young baby to go from 8pm to 8 or 9am with NOTHING is ridiculous, especially a breast milk fed baby. And at six months, he was draining a 6-8ox bottle in 10 minutes or less and then rolling over back to sleep. If we didn’t feed him, he would go from upset crying to screaming like he was being stabbed.
He’s 8 months now, only wakes up at 1am and 6am. I don’t want to cut out those feedings because he eats so sparsely during the day (he’s a grazer: little bit here, little bit there, never a complete meal).
I figure he’ll sort it out on his own. In the mean time, we’ll feed him when he’s hungry. Who wouldn’t feed a hungry baby?
[Reply]
holly Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 4:51 am (Quote)
my breast fed baby slept through the night from week three and she was never underweight. All babies are different.
[Reply]
Jessicakc Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 6:06 am (Quote)
My breastfed son is on a similar pattern. I know he needs his midnight feeding even now at 8 months. He prefers that feeding to his morning feeding. We are all much happier when he eats on his schedule. And isn’t a happy baby important?
Holly, we get it. I think that’s the point. The ped was wrong to say all babies should follow the same schedule.
[Reply]
Holly Reply:
November 27th, 2011 at 8:10 pm (Quote)
again.. different Holly chiming in here.
Having had a child that was labeled FTT (my third) I am overly cautious about this.. Having two children that have been on the “flagged” list at WIC since BIRTH for being “underweight” even though they eat regular meals and are healthy and PERFECT means nothing to them.
If I stopped feeding my son at night life would be MISERABLE for us! I would absolutely NEVER leave him to cry until he shut up and went to sleep so we would be dealing with a baby screaming all the time and trying to get to his “night nights” or “nursies” (same thing, he is trying out a new name for nursing now ).He has fallen asleep for his initial sleep by himself but when he wakes up he NEEDS to nurse. I don’t care if he is just nursing for comfort or if he gets milk. He doesn’t take a paci, doesn’t have a blankie or a lovey.. I don’t have to worry about a dirty piece of plastic that has been dropped, stepped on, wiped across the floor and all other manner of nasties being in his mouth and I don’t have to worry about losing a blankie or a lovey!!! OMG!!! BTDT on all three things. NEVER AGAIN LOL!! I am more than content to be his lovey, blanket and let him comfort nurse to his hearts content
[Reply]
Missy had this to say,
Nov 21, 2011 @ 11:05 pm (Quote)
The definition of STTN for a baby under 1 year old is one 5 hour stretch. At 6 months it is not unreasonable to expect a child to wake to feed every 3 hours. My 15 month old still wakes every 3 hours to nurse. We do usually get a nice 5 hour stretch except during teething or illness. Is she hungry?
Who cares. She’s only a baby for a short time. As far as “teaching” to sleep- that is sleep training and it is wrong on so many levels. It usually involves making a child cry it out to some degree which cn lead to a host of emotional, physical and psychological issues later down the road. And whoever suggested that you potty train a child before they are ready is kind of missing the point. We tried potty training my son before he was ready and guess what? Didn’t work. There are certain things (like speech, crawling, walking, pincer grasp, loss of tongue thrust reflex, rolling over, STTN) that naturally occur in all normal, healthy children. It varies from child to child when it occurs, but it is generally within the same few months. My daughter walked a few weeks before my son did. My son rolled over before my daughter did. My son didn’t sleep 8 or more straight hours until he was 3 even though he weaned at 15 months (and stopped nursing at night at 12 months). Did I push my kids towards any milestone they weren’t ready for? Absolutely not. They are their own person and I am not going to force them to fit anyone else’s definition of “normal”. They tell me what their normal is.
Anyway- that pediatrician is a douche.
[Reply]
holly Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 4:54 am (Quote)
sleep training doesn’t have to involve crying. We never let her cry but instead of a bottle we stuck a passy in her mouth the first time and eventually got her not to need food the whole night. Your right no matter what they say, if you make them cry it’s heart wrenching I don’t know if it messes them up for life but it messed me up for life watching my brother do it to his daughter.
[Reply]
Heather Reply:
November 25th, 2011 at 6:57 pm (Quote)
MRIs have shown it DOES ‘mess them up’ for life. It inhibits the growth of white matter in the brain and encourages the growth of the amygdala (fear/flight primitive brain). And no, I’m not going to search out which books those medical studies were in
[Reply]
abba12 Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 1:53 pm (Quote)
So almost all our parents, and most of us, have emotional, physical and psychological damage then. Good to know. Because almost all our parents and most of us would have been left to cry it out once in awhile.
As for your unsuccessful potty training, you’re aware that most non-english speaking countries potty train ‘early’ as their norm right? And it seems to work for them. I’m sorry but if half of the world can manage to do it successfully, and the majority of our ancestors managed to do it, perhaps you just did it wrong?
Children that aren’t put on their tummies are much slower to learn to crawl if they learn at all, children who are rarely spoken to are delayed in their speech, so we can inhibit our childrens learning but we can’t encourage it, or teach it. Everyone learns to read eventually, does that mean we don’t teach our children to read? Everyone figures out 2+2 eventually, so does that mean we don’t teach our children to figure? It just… happens I guess.
It’s no wonder todays children expect the world to revolve around them, and to get whatever they want.
[Reply]
Toni Reply:
November 23rd, 2011 at 8:02 am (Quote)
Is the child really “potty trained” if the parent has to initiate the process every single time? I mean, at that point it seems like the *parent* is the one being “trained” (that’s how I tend to view EC – you’re not really teaching the child anything, you’re training yourself to take the kid hourly, or whathaveyou). Now, if you have the time and patience to do it, and you aren’t expecting too much, sure, knock yourself out. But in order for the kid to use the pot by himself he still needs to be ready. Putting a child on the potty does get him used to the idea and so, yeah, I started putting my kids on it around 15-18 mos, not expecting them to actually DO anything, but just to get them used to sitting there. But that’s not “potty training”, that’s gearing up for potty training. Maybe it’s semantics but I’d rather wait until my child has the vocabulary, physical coordination, and ability to recognize the urge and hold their bowels and urine until the get to the proper place before getting down to serious potty training. Anything else is just parent training
Nice how you jump to the idea that she is doing something “wrong” tho. Of course, that has been your tone throughout – kids don’t do x, y, or z because the parents are too lazy, stupid, or incompetent, right? It’s not because they are trying to be respectful of their children’s needs and do what is recommended (nursing “on demand” for example – “on demand” doesn’t just mean during daylight hours) and do what they believe is in the child’s best interests. I suspect that’s you feel you are doing that too. While I disagree with your approach, I don’t question you intnetions, your intelligence, or your ability to take care of your kids. Too bad that’s not reciprocated…
“Children that aren’t put on their tummies are much slower to learn to crawl if they learn at all, children who are rarely spoken to are delayed in their speech, so we can inhibit our childrens learning but we can’t encourage it, or teach it. ”
Yes, I think that’s what I’ve been trying to say here – a normal healthy child in a ***normal healthy environment*** will hit milestones appropriately withourt formal “instruction”. What you are describing here (not allowing the child opportunity, not speaking to the child (!!)) are examples of an abnormal or even unhealthy (or downright abusive, in the case of not speaking to the kid) environment. Yes, that will cause delays.
“Everyone learns to read eventually, does that mean we don’t teach our children to read? ”
Where on earth did you get the idea that “everyone learns to read eventually”?? Literacy is NOT a “milestone”. It is a skill that needs to be taught. There are quite a few people out there who are either completely illiterate, or who can’t read past whatever grade level they completed in school. Reading is not something that just “comes to you”. It cannot be learned by observing others doing it. You must be developmentally ready to learn, but you need to be taught nonetheless – learning the alphabet, learning the sounds the individual letters make, moving on to simple words, learning “rules” of spelling, phonics, grammer, and punctuation. You don’t just achieve the milestone of reading. You must have some instruction.
“Everyone figures out 2+2 eventually, so does that mean we don’t teach our children to figure? ”
No. Not everyone figures that out. You need to be taught what the numbers are. You need to learn to count. You need to learn the concept of “addition” and what is meant by that. And in the case of abstract mathematical concepts, you need to be capable of abstract thought (a milestone not usually achieved until after about age 7, and more advanced around age 12) before you can understand certain concepts. Question – did you just figure out calculus without taking a course (either in high school or college)? I know I couldn’t have figured that out without formal instruction, and there are a lot of people who never learn calculus. Why? Because learning calculus is not a milestone; it is a complex skill that needs to be taught. Just like reading, just like chemistry, just like history, just like swimming, riding a bike, or tying your shoes. Those are not milestones. Those are not things that normal healthy kids in a normal healhty enviroment will do without any instruction.
However, following an object with their eyes, finding their foot and putting in their mouth, cooing, smiling, babbling, talking, walking, and, yes, STTN, are all things that a normal healthy child in a normal healthy environment will do without any formal teaching. Those are milestones. Now, potty training involves both milestones (being able to control ones bowels and bladder, particularly while sleeping and having the language and/or physical skills to let someone know, or get to the potty themselves) and learned skills (learning what a potty is for, how to wipe, how to wash your hands). So I don’t see that as purely a milestone, though the child does have to be ready, and it is easiest if the child expresses an interest (or at least expresses displeasure at being wet/dirty).
And maybe that’s the problem here. We’re defining our terms differently. You seem to think everything anyone ever does is a milestone. I think there is a difference between a milestone and a learned skill. We probably also differ in where we would categorize STTN. I think it is a milestone that everyone will do, without formal instruction (or being forced/ignored at night). You seem to think it is a skill that needs to be taught, or it won’t ever happen…
You do seem very offended by what others have been trying to get across to you. I don’t know if I’ve explained where I’m coming from adequately, but I hope you aren’t offended by it. Milestones, skills, and discipline are three seperate things; the implication that parents who don’t force kids to achieve milestones on the parent’s timetable (as tho that’s even possible) are spoiling their children is offensive, so don’t be surprised if people offend you right back
[Reply]
Rosalinde Reply:
November 25th, 2011 at 6:40 am (Quote)
“Is the child really “potty trained” if the parent has to initiate the process every single time? I mean, at that point it seems like the *parent* is the one being “trained” (that’s how I tend to view EC – you’re not really teaching the child anything, you’re training yourself to take the kid hourly, or whathaveyou). Now, if you have the time and patience to do it, and you aren’t expecting too much, sure, knock yourself out.”
This is exactly what I used to think about EC. Then I saw it in action, and I read more about it. Babies have the ability to decide when to perform those bodily functions. They can’t hold it forever, but if you offer them the opportunity for the potty often enough, they can hold on until you do. Look at how many people get sprayed by young infants during the diaper change. The baby waited until it wouldn’t have to go in the diaper. As time goes on, babies are trained out of this.
I have tried EC with my youngest, and long before she could take herself to the potty, she could indicate that she wanted to go by tapping on her diaper or leaning toward and indicating the bathroom when she had to go.
[Reply]
Heather Reply:
November 25th, 2011 at 7:01 pm (Quote)
“So almost all our parents, and most of us, have emotional, physical and psychological damage then. Good to know. Because almost all our parents and most of us would have been left to cry it out once in awhile.”
Actually, pretty much everyone I know who had CIO used on them DOES. Some of them deny it… while popping Xanax or complaining of insomnia/inability to sleep with their spouse/child, complaining of social anxiety, etc.
I was left to CIO as a toddler and yes, I have psychological damage. Science has backed that up, over and over, and it’s only society that keeps saying “Nuh-uh! It doesn’t hurt nothing!”
[Reply]
Ummm, is it bad that I have NO recollection when DS started to STTN? DH and I just took it day by day and when it happened, it happened. We all figured it out eventually. Each baby IS different and you have to learn what works for YOUR baby. It isn’t always easy or fun, but you do get there…
[Reply]
Liz had this to say,
Nov 22, 2011 @ 8:22 am (Quote)
Both of my boys actually stated nursing more often at night when they turned 6 months because that is when they started crawling. They were so distracted and fidgity they rarely nursed during the day. If I quit feeding them at night I would get less sleep because they would be screaming bloody murder all night long. My oldest didn’t sleep through the night till 14 months and didn’t start solids till 10 months, so most of his nutrition came from night feedings. Every baby is different and just because you, abba, were able to get your baby to sleep doesn’t mean that you did it right and everyone else is doing it wrong. I get so sick of mom’s telling me how to ‘fix’ my kids so that they act like their kids.
[Reply]
At our 6mo checkup, the doctor gave me a handout that said “Remember, at this age babies do not need to be fed in the middle of the night. I take these handouts with a grain of salt because we see the ped for medical care, not child-rearing issues. STTN is a child-rearing issue, not a medical one.
When the doctor asks how many times she wakes up at night I honestly say I have no idea. We have a cosleeper and I almost never wake all the way up to tend to her. Doc doesn’t bat an eye.
[Reply]
If someone greeted me with my favorite hot homemade cookies in the middle of the night I would wake up too.
I breastfed all six of my babies who slept through the night by three months, some on their own, some with some training.
Regardless of how it went down I had happy chubby babies
[Reply]
abba12 Reply:
November 23rd, 2011 at 12:07 am (Quote)
Thanks so much for this, I appreciate knowing I’m not the only one who sleep trained who still believes in birth decisions.
I find myself hitting a horrible middle ground where I believe too much of the old fashioned way to be accepted by people like these, and too much of the modern way to be accepted by ‘normal’ parents. I suppose you might be in the same boat.
Thanks for saying something despite all the hostility here
[Reply]
Toni Reply:
November 23rd, 2011 at 12:31 pm (Quote)
“Thanks for saying something despite all the hostility here”
Yeah, hostility like: “But the point remains, if she wants him to sleep through the night she needs to stop giving him a reason to wake.”
Which was the second thing you said (second sentance) in your very first post to this thread. Because 6 month old babies NEVER crap their pants, get thirsty, have growth spurts, feel ill, or teethe after dark. The ONLY reason a 6 month old could possibly have for waking is because his inept, useless, incompetent mother is “giving him a reason” to wake (in an attempt to “spoil” him, no doubt), right? Then you wonder where the “hostility” is coming from
[Reply]
Heather Reply:
November 25th, 2011 at 7:05 pm (Quote)
Thank you. That is EXACTLY why I’m so mad. That EXACT sentence. The fact is that I night nurse and my second daughter STTN from 2 weeks. Heck, this new baby is still sleeping 4 hour stretches and she’s only 8 days old. Their sister slept about 2 hours at a time until 3-4 months, then 4 hours at a time.
It’s different personalities, different needs. I’d never force a child to be hungry/go without comfort just for my own convenience. Being a parent isn’t convenient. It’s love.
[Reply]
Camille Reply:
November 23rd, 2011 at 9:21 pm (Quote)
Ha, yes! Anyone who had ever had a baby in the NICU for an extended stay knows that indeed babies can be trained to wake up for a feeding, rolling over, stats etc. every three hours on the hour. I think the same goes at home, not knocking it…just not choosing it. Some people don’t mind getting up in the middle of the night several times, good for them. Personally, I.prefer to encourage sleeping through the night. And most good parents in tune with their babies can tell the difference in a cry because of being sick and a cry of wanting to eat…certainly responding to a sick baby is worthy of spending all night awake if needs be!
[Reply]
Toni Reply:
November 23rd, 2011 at 11:53 am (Quote)
Funny, even when I know I baked cookies that day (so they would be there to “greet me” if I got up) I still don’t wake up in the MOTN unless I’m genuinely hungry, thirsty, or have to pee But then, why the heck would I? My stomach is larger than an infant’s, I’m not going to double my weight in 6 mos, triple it in a year (I certainly hope not anyway 
), and you know, I DO get up if I need to pee (four mos pregnant makes that a 1-2x a night ritual) and I keep a glass of water bedside. Hmmm. Why do we expect 3 month old babies to have even FEWER nighttime needs than adults? Seems bass ackwards to me…
[Reply]
Mama Wrench Reply:
November 23rd, 2011 at 12:44 pm (Quote)
This!
I’m so pregnant right now that I wake up every. single. time. I need to roll over — which is at least 5 times a night. In other words, I only wake up because I’m uncomfortable, and only stay awake long enough to ease that discomfort and return to sleep. If sleep didn’t make me uncomfortable I wouldn’t wake up, and if I ignored those urges I’d wake up even more sore than I already am.
[Reply]
Missy had this to say,
Nov 22, 2011 @ 4:05 pm (Quote)
At abba12. Wow. Your problem with me is what? That I don’t make my children cry it out and feel abandoned by their caretaker? That I don’t force them to piss in a potty before they are ready? Because I feed them when they are hungry or just need the comfort of the breast? Do some research about CIO and STTN before you judge anyone! And, no offense to anyone, but I could care less about how old other kids are in some other country when they are potty trained. I only care about MY kids. Other kids are not my business. While I wish I could get every parent to stop Using CIO and to realize that BFing on demand even at night for at least the first year is what we are Suppossed to do, I can’t actually make that happen. But for you to tell ME that I am raising MY kids WRONG means there is something WRONG WITH YOU. Do you appreciate being treated like cattle? Just another nameless, faceless, emotionless member of the heard? I know I don’t! Why would I then presume that my children would want to be treated that way? Why would I parent them with a one-size-fits-all philosophy when they are their own unique individual?
You say that a baby on their stomach will learn to crawl faster than one who isn’t places on their stomach. Well, my son had sever reflux and other issues which led to him having hardly any “tummy time”. Less than 15 minutes a week usually. Guess what? He crawled sooner than my daughter who got at least 15 minutes of tummy time a day. They are developmental milestones that WILL happen without any parent FORCING it on a child.
Yes, we do teach children to read and do math. Will they be able to do it properly before they are actually ready. No. The whole “your baby can read” program is proof of that. They have found that the babies that learn to read too early son make the correct pathways in their brains and can develop learning issues later down the line. And kids potty trained before they are ready have more accidents and bladder/urinary tract/ and kidney infections than kids potty trained on their own schedule. Just because the neighbors kids are potty trained at 6 months, can read at 9 months and STTN the day they were brought home from the hospital, doesn’t mean my kids do or should. And yes, this world is FULL of messed up people who have to deal with the way we were raised- maybe our parents didn’t know any better but we have no excuse. Don’t be a sheep and don’t raise your kids to be sheep and make them think that THEY are any less than perfect for being just who they are. Why shouldn’t the world revolve around the kids? They are the ones who are going to be picking out my retirement home so it’s best to stay on their good side.
[Reply]
Jennifer Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 6:08 pm (Quote)
My guess is she feels guilty for her choices and is making herself feel better by belittling those who did things differently than she did. It is an unfortunate defense mechanism.
[Reply]
abba12 Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 11:57 pm (Quote)
I am far from a sheep, I do plenty that the average everyday moms disagree with as well. You complain that I am telling you you are wrong. Well actually, originally I stated an opinion, far from forcing it on everyone, and I had multiple replies being sarcastic, snarky, and telling me I was wrong, outright. No different opinions, I was wrong and they were right.
Of course I tried to defend the way I raise my child.
But, you know, that’s fine. You guys think I will end up with a psychologically, emotionally, physically damaged baby that won’t sleep as a toddler. I think you will have children that are used to getting their own way all the time and become selfish and demanding as toddlers. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
I also note that many of you women are telling me babies cannot sleep through the night so young, that they need to eat, etc. Well I see one woman who’s BF baby slept through at 3 weeks, another who had all six BF children sleep through by 3 months, and I have a daughter who slept through at 2 months, so it is undoubtably possible. We all say we had babies of a healthy weight, and I can only speak for myself but I have a baby that people constantly comment is unusually happy, cheery and bright. You complain about doctors and their zombie babies, well I suppose you consider our 8 babies, as well as my 8 brothers and sister in laws and my 3 siblings as all being zombies also. I can assure you none of my siblings have sleep issues, or psychological damage.
You come to this site to complain about the judgmentalness of doctors, I state an opinion and I have a crowd of women coming after me, personally offended that I’m not doing things their way and using scare tactics (dead baby card? I think the damaged baby card is scarier, it’s harder to shrug off.)
I gave an opinion, I never said anyone was right or wrong, I even gave the disclaimer that maybe I was naive because my first baby managed so well. I didn’t go into rants on the various things I could have from this topic. And then I was told my opinion was wrong flat out, not just another way of parenting. I thought this community had respect for parenting choices, but apparently it’s only the choices that suit this community.
[Reply]
Toni Reply:
November 23rd, 2011 at 8:19 am (Quote)
You have one child that’s not even a toddler yet? And you are here judging what other mother’s do and are accusing us of spoiling our children. Does that not occur to you as kinda ridiculous?
Your first post was rather judgemental. Your implication was that you knew everything because your baby was easy. You failed to disclose that you ff until called out on it (it does make a difference). You failed to disclose that your child is still an infant (so you really don’t *know* whether or not your method “worked” yet, now do you?). When I pointed out to you that children hit milestones at different ages, and while your baby (and some of the babies you know) may have been “ready” to STTN when you pushed them to, not every baby will be ready at that time, you went on the defensive, using absurd examples of not PTing until age 6, or reading until age 10 (which aren’t really purely milestones anyway, so they were bad examples hon); you pointed to our grandparents’ generation as justification for the “old way” of doing things (the same generation that gave solids at 2-3 mos, put them on their tummies to sleep, and were apt to offer whiskey for sore gums… hmm maybe they didn’t know everything there is to know..), and went on to mention your poor, put upon, bfing friend who is suffering severe exhaustion, depression, and doesn’t want anymore kids simply because she feeds her kid at night (hmm… seems like there’s more to that story). After all that you ADMIT that your daughter followed her own schedule (despite your attempts to “teach” her milestones). Lol. How inconvenient for you
Look, I understand. I was a FTM of an infant once. I get how you want them to be normal and healthy and you focus on these milestones, and maybe even pretend that you have some control over it. The fact is, they do these things when they are ready, and not a moment before. If you had success in “teaching” your daughter, it was because she was *ready*. Not because you are oh so superior to the rest of us.
[Reply]
Missy had this to say,
Nov 23, 2011 @ 6:41 am (Quote)
A baby STTN when THEY are ready and making a child who IS NOT ready by using CIO are two completely separate things. My daughter STTN from 2-4 months without me using CIO. She hit the 4 month sleep regression and hasn’t STTN since. Again, DO RESEARCH ON THE PSYCHOLOGICAL, EMOTIONAL AND PHYSICAL DAMANGE THAT CIO can cause. That is not an opinion- it is FACT. Just because you have a different opinion does not change the FACTS. I have incredible respect for the parents that make parenting choices based on research, fact and the child’s well-being. CIO raises a baby’s temperature, makes the baby release stress hormones which cause certain parts of the brain to not develop properly, can cause attachment disorders, social disorders and teaches the baby that crying is useless despite it being the only way they have to communicate their needs. So, no, I do not respect parents who choose this method of child rearing when it is so clearly detrimental to babies. Babies who are physically abused have the same biophysical response as CIO babies. CIO leads to more and extreme cases of Failure to Thrive and severe dehydration. Recent studies have proven that CIO babies who have also been trained by such methods as “Babywise” and books by the Pearls are less likely to be called “well behaved, happy” teenagers. Attachment parenting (or as evolution and biology would call it – parenting) has proven to make children more confident, more compassionate, more sensitive to the needs of others, have higher IQs, have less attachment and social disorders, be better at sports and have a broader social circle of friends. These aren’t opinions, these are FACTS. And wouldn’t I be offended? You told me I was raising my child wrong by listening to their cues. So in essence you were saying that my childrens cues were wrong. Say what you will about me (I can handle it since I was not made to CIO and I have confidence in my parenting choices and myself and my broad social circle does not include haters), but you attack my children and Mama Bear gets pretty darn protective of her cubs! So, If you feel the need to insult any more parents about their parenting choices, I suggest you actually research the methods you are advocating and the damaging effects they can have.
[Reply]
Laura--The Sushi Snob had this to say,
Nov 25, 2011 @ 3:42 pm (Quote)
I will say this: my grandmother sleep trained my mom by not feeding her at night, and it was awful. She also did it so my mom wouldn’t get fat (yes, my grandmother had issues). My mom is fine, but had bonding issues with my grandmother.
My parents did not have us CIO. Never–my mother thinks it’s barbaric. They still met our needs at night, but made it as boring as humanly possible to decrease the appeal Guess what? We learned to sleep through the night in the range of 6-8 months of age.
Oh, and sometimes…my mom brought us into bed with her during the MOTN feedings. The horror!
[Reply]
Add Your Comment.
Previous Post
« “You Probably Just Have A Dysfunctional Uterus.” Next Post
“If She Even Sits Up, The Baby Could Fall Out.” »
« “You Probably Just Have A Dysfunctional Uterus.” Next Post
“If She Even Sits Up, The Baby Could Fall Out.” »
Derp… Wait… What?!?
[Reply]