Aug 102010
 

“Childbirth is one of the most dangerous things a woman can do today.”  -OB to a mother in the middle of her labor and birth.

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 August 10, 2010  birth, OB  Add comments

  344 Responses to “"Childbirth Is One Of The Most Dangerous Things A Woman Can Do Today."”

  1. Studies and information refuting YOUR claim that home birth is unsafe, and pointing out that yes, indeed a study WAS done in the UK. Lots of good stuff. Scroll up and find it, read it, then apologize for being a condescending person who does NOT in fact, know it all.

  2. “Studies and information refuting YOUR claim that home birth is unsafe, and pointing out that yes, indeed a study WAS done in the UK.”

    Sorry, that’s not the way that science works. If you want someone to refute a claim, you MUST state the specific claim and the paper that carries it.

    • Why? You never once prove where your claims come from. Why should anyone else?

    • Ha! You mean like here where you stated the specific claim and the paper that carries it:

      “As a matter of fact childbirth IS one of the most dangerous things a woman can do.
      Childbirth is and has always been, in EVERY time, place and culture, a leading cause of death of young women. And of the eighteen years of childhood, the day of birth is the most dangerous by far.
      In nature, the neonatal mortality rate is 7% and the maternal mortality rate is 1%. Childbirth is far safer now because modern obstetrics has decreased the neonatal mortality rate 90% and the maternal mortality rate by 99% in the past 100 years.”

      You demand that people back up their claims and when they do (scroll up you lazy pig, there’s a post with THREE reported studies that found homebirth to be as safe as hospital birth) you don’t respond. But you haven’t yet listed any of your own sources.

      Not only are you a hypocrite, you’re a total joke!

      Oh, what the hell, I’ll do the work for you because I’m just that nice:) Here’s what Dr. Dunn posted, links included:

      http://www.imbi.uni-freiburg.de/OJS/cca/index.php/cca/article/viewArticle/4165
      “Results: The perinatal mortality was not significantly different in the two groups (OR=0.87, 95% Cl 0.54-1.41). The principal difference in the outcome was a lower incidence of low Apgar scores (OR=0.55; 0.41-0.74) and a lower incidence of severe lacerations (OR=0.67; 0.54-0.83) in the home birth group. Medical interventions were much less common in the home birth group: induction (statistically significant ORs in the range (0.06-0.39), augmentation (0.26-0.69), episiotomy (0.02-0.39), operative vaginal birth (0.03-0.42) and cesarean section (0.05-0.31). No maternal deaths were observed in any of the studies. Some of the differences may be partly due to bias. However, the findings regarding morbidity are supported by randomized clinical trials of elements of birth care relevant for home birth, and the finding relating to mortality is supported by large register studies comparing variously specialized hospital settings.”

      http://oregonstate.edu/cla/anthropology/reproductive_lab/sites/default/files/Johnson_Daviss_2000.pdf
      Conclusions: Planned home birth for low risk women in North America using certified professional midwives was associated with lower rates of medical intervention but similar intrapartum and neonatal mortality to that of low risk hospital births in the United States.”

      BMJ study:
      Results 655 (12.1%) women who intended to deliver at home when labour began were transferred to hospital. Medical intervention rates included epidural (4.7%), episiotomy (2.1%), forceps (1.0%), vacuum extraction (0.6%), and caesarean section (3.7%); these rates were substantially lower than for low risk US women having hospital births. The intrapartum and neonatal mortality among women considered at low risk at start of labour, excluding deaths concerning life threatening congenital anomalies, was 1.7 deaths per 1000 planned home births, similar to risks in other studies of low risk home and hospital births in North America. No mothers died. No discrepancies were found for perinatal outcomes independently validated.

      Conclusions Planned home birth for low risk women in North America using certified professional midwives was associated with lower rates of medical intervention but similar intrapartum and neonatal mortality to that of low risk hospital births in the United States.

      There was also an Oregon State University study proving the safety, but I can’t find it. Maybe someone else bookmarked it when it came out?

      • Sorry for the “pig” comment. I shouldn’t have let you get to me. Lazy, yes, you didn’t want to keep up with the whole debate and everyone else to do the work for you, but “pig” was uncalled for.

      • “with THREE reported studies”

        Did you read them? No, right? So how can you be educated on the topic if you don’t read the studies?

        If you had read them, or even read about them in the scientific literature, you would have learned:

        1. The Olsen study was discredited long ago. According to the National Center for Health and Clinical Excellence in the UK, which reviewed the entire homebirth literature:

        “This [paper] included studies with significant methodological weakness in the meta-analysis. In particular, although the original study did attempt to put the data into a regression analysis, raw perinatal mortality data from high risk population as a control, and the actual home birth population were directly included in the meta-analysis.”

        2. The Johnson and Daviss study, which claims to show that homebirth is as safe as hospital birth, ACTUALLY shows that homebirth has triple the neonatal mortality of hospital birth.

        The study is a bait and switch. The authors looked at all CPM attended homebirths in the year 2000 and compared the interventions in those births with moderate to low risk hospital births in the same year. So far, so good. Then the authors compared the death rates for all CPM attended homebirths in 2000 with … a bunch of out of date studies extending back to 1969. Why, you might ask, did they fail to compare the homebirths in 2000 with the hospital births in 2000? When you do the comparison (the data is publicly available and has been since 2002), it shows that homebirth nearly triples the rate of neonatal death.

        The authors also failed to disclose a serious conflict of interest. Kenneth Johnson is the former Director of Research for the Midwives Alliance of North America. The authors did acknowledge that the study was funded by a homebirth advocacy foundation.

        3. Just as a point of additional information: The Midwives Alliance of North America (MANA) has continued to collect the same mortality statistics since 2000. For years, they promised that the results would be available “soon” and would demonstrate that homebirth is as safe as hospital birth. Last year, they announced that the results were available, but would not be released to the public. They could only be accessed by people who could prove they would use them for the “advancement” of midwifery, and even those people would be required to sign a legal non-disclosure agreement promising not to reveal the death rates to anyone else.

        You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to suspect that MANA’s own data shows that homebirth increases the risk of neonatal death and that they are desperately trying to hide this fact from American women.

        So the evidence that you insist supports your claim does nothing of the kind. The first study was irretrievably flawed, and the second actually shows that homebirth triples the rate of neonatal death.

        Any questions?

        • Yes.

          If homebirth triples neonatal risk, why do countries with homebirth and midwives integrated into the standard model of care have lower neonatal mortality rates than the United States?

          If the American medical system is doing such a service to mothers, why would Marsden Wagner write an entire book on how it’s letting them (and their babies) down?

          If the American medical system is so optimal for mothers and babes, why is the maternal morbidity rate over 43%? Why is it that nearly half of women come out of their hospital birth experiences with some form of physical ill being?

          If the American system is doing so well, why are mothers across the country striking out against it and seeking alternatives?

  3. “If homebirth triples neonatal risk, why do countries with homebirth and midwives integrated into the standard model of care have lower neonatal mortality rates than the United States?”

    Which countries?

    Don’t confuse infant mortality with neonatal mortality. Infant mortality (death from birth to 1 year) is a measure of pediatric care; among the major causes are accidents, and sudden infant death syndrome. Neonatal mortality (death from birth to 28 days) is a measure of obstetric care. According to the World Health Organization, the best measure of obstetric care is perinatal mortality (death from 28 weeks of pregnancy to 28 days of life).

    Why is perinatal mortality the best measure? Some countries like the Netherlands deliberately categorize liveborn premature babies as stillbirths so as to make their infant and neonatal mortality figures look better. Therefore, the infant mortality figures for the Netherlands look great, but the perinatal mortality figures don’t look great at all. The Netherlands has one of the highest perinatal mortality rates in Europe.

    “If the American medical system is doing such a service to mothers, why would Marsden Wagner write an entire book on how it’s letting them (and their babies) down?”

    To make money, obviously. He wrote a book for lay people who can’t adequately evaluate his claims.

    “If the American medical system is so optimal for mothers and babes, why is the maternal morbidity rate over 43%?”

    Says who?

    “If the American system is doing so well, why are mothers across the country striking out against it and seeking alternatives?”

    They’re not. According to the Listening to Mothers Survey II conducted by the Childbirth Connection, the overwhelming majority of American women are satisfied with their hospital experience.

    Very few women seek alternatives. Homebirth is a fringe movement accounting for less than 1% of births.

    • And yet you STILL haven’t backed up any of your claims.
      And say whatever you want about Marsden Wagner…he was in practice longer than you were. He was in research longer than you were. And he was the Director of Women and Children Services longer than you were. It’s going to take more than claiming you know more than everyone on this site to make anyone believe you know more than Dr. Wagner.
      When was the last time you were asked to testify in a court case? He has testified in many.
      Claiming you know more than everyone else doesn’t make it true.

    • 1) “Which countries?”

      Even according to the World Health Organization’s statistics for the year 2000 (which is granted a little outdated, but not much has really changed), the perinatal mortality rate for the United States was 7. Still higher than, as I mentioned before, Singapore. Midwifery in Singapore is government supported. The American model supporting obstetricians providing care for low risk women is putting women at risk more than it is saving them. Obstetricians belong in the operating room, not in the delivery room for an uneventful pregnancy and delivery. It is a disservice to OBs and to mothers to have it any other way. Also, to refute your claims against the Netherlands, they have a perinatal mortality rate of 1: scarcely one above the United States. Clearly, we’re not seeing a tripling of perinatal mortality in the Netherlands because of the abundance of homebirth there.

      And Canada, which does have midwifery as an option, and does have lower rates of caesarians and interventions, is a 6. Not much better, but still slightly better than the knife-happy American hospital system.

      Denmark, Sweden and the Netherlands are among 3 of the most commonly touted “models” of midwifery care. Denmark and the Netherlands sit at an 8 for neonatal mortality, Sweden sits at a very impressive 5. This is using the definition you provided for perinatal mortality from the organization you also used. Given that the United States sits above 5 and barely below 8, where are you getting that these midwife-based models of care are doing more harm than the American system?

      2) Right, because I’m sure Marsden Wagner wasn’t making a killing working for the W.H.O. in such a respectable capacity for so long. And I’m sure that he couldn’t have made money hand over fist doing research. Oh, right, he’s not an OB: How can he research obstetricians? I have news for you, Amy: You don’t have to be an OB to read and understand the literature, nor do you have to be an OB to take a critical eye to an issue and provide excellent, objective research. I would draw your attention to the burgeoning body of research in medical and reproductive anthropology that is adding volumes upon volumes of qualitative AND quantitative data to questioning biomedical models of care. I can adequately question Dr. Wagner’s claims, given that I have access to a huge academic library and every online journal through EBSCOHOST, JSTOR, etc. And he’s still providing way better data than you ever have.

      3) “Says who?”
      2003 Cynthia Berg, et al. Magnitude of Maternal Morbidity During Labour & Delivery: United States 1993-1997. American Journal of Public Health 93(4).
      “Maternal morbidity during delivery is frequent and often preventable. Reducing maternal morbidity is a national health objective, and its monitoring is key to improving maternal health.”

      I’d be interested to know a few things about your “Listening to Mothers” survey. Who received this survey? Who responded to it? What income brackets did they fall into? Did they use midwives with hospital privileges, doctors, or OBs? Did they have low-risk or high risk pregnancies? Did they have unnecessary interventions with adverse outcomes? Were they *aware* that interventions done to them might have caused adverse outcomes they experienced, or did they believe it when a doctor spouted about how they saved their life, when in fact they were the ones who put them at risk?

      A survey is a survey of the experiences of people on the ground. For someone who doesn’t like what the laymans here have to say (nor the professionals…) you are giving credence to a survey that was conducted strictly among LAYMANS. You are being hypocritical. You cannot continue to waver back and forth with what is credible and not credible to you: You have to pick one and stick with it, before it becomes even MORE clear that you are simply selling the status quo.

      I should mention I have an excellent obstetrician who told me in no uncertain terms about my desire to avoid future c-sections. “I can tell you what the standards of practice are. I can’t tell you whether or not the scientific research agrees with what those standards of practice are.”

      • “Clearly, we’re not seeing a tripling of perinatal mortality in the Netherlands because of the abundance of homebirth there.”

        There’s that tricky 4th grade math again. Homebirth triples the neonatal mortality rate for comparable risk women. That does not mean that homebirth triples the overall perinatal mortality rate.

        “Cynthia Berg, et al.”

        You seem to be confused about what the paper showed. You implied that hospital practices led to increased morbidity. The authors looked at how many women experienced various pregnancy complications like gestational diabetes, pre-eclampsia and hemorrhage. Their findings show that complications in pregnancy, far from being rare, actually occur quite commonly. This is MY argument, not yours.

        “he couldn’t have made money hands over fist dpomg research”

        Wjat research? He was a health executive, not a health researcher.

  4. “And say whatever you want about Marsden Wagner…he was in practice longer than you were. He was in research longer than you were.”

    And he is not an obstetrician.

    Henci Goer has never practice medicine at all, nor midwifey, nor does she have an advance degree. By your reasoning, we should ignore everything she writes.

    • Oh, so now you don’t think family practitioners and general practitioners aren’t as smart as you either?
      For 15 years, Dr. Marsden Wagner was the director of Women’s and Children’s Health in the World Health Organization. How long did you hold such a position centering around women’s health?

      Does everyone has to be an OB to be a good researcher?

      You have to be the most arrogant doctor I’ve ever met. You are just unbelievably full of yourself!!

      I respect the surgical skills of an OB. But they are not necessary to be a baby catcher, nor to do research about maternity care.

      • “For 15 years, Dr. Marsden Wagner was the director of Women’s and Children’s Health in the World Health Organization”

        No, he wasn’t.

        Marsden Wagner was a Regional Officer with the Maternal and Child Health unit, for the WHO’s Europe Region, based in Copenhagen.

        This is a FAR cry from being the director of the WHO’s Maternal and Child Health unit (for the entire globe).

        For the record, he is a pediatrician with added training in public health. Since he is not an OB, he is not able to speak as an expert in relation to the medical issues pertaining to pregnancy and childbirth.

        • lol You’re as bad as “Dr.” Amy! If everyone who did good research had their research thrown out because they weren’t practicing in that specific field at the time, we’d be set back centuries!
          In fact, “Dr.” Amy isn’t an expert since she’s hasn’t practiced in more than 20 years.
          Lordie…you people sound like such idiots when you discredit research for such stupid reasons:( lol

    • Marsden Wagner, MD, is a perinatologist and perinatal epidemiologist from California and an outspoken supporter of midwifery. He was director of Women’s and Children’s Health in the World Health Organization for 15 years. From his current home in Takoma Park, Maryland, Marsden travels the world to talk about improving maternity care, including the appropriate use of technology in birth and utilizing midwives for the best outcomes. He raised four children as a single father. His books, Born in the USA, Creating Your Birth Plan, and Pursuing the Birth Machine, are invaluable for anyone involved in birth.

  5. You know what? Some people die. Some babies cannot survive the rigors of birth. Some women cannot survive the rigors of birth. Some doctors are willing to do whatever it takes to save extreme preemies, and babies who will ultimately have no quality of life.

    And when I had my babies, I knew there would be risks, and my knowledge of those risks increased with each pregnancy.At my first birth, the doctor almost killed both my baby and I- pushed his head(which was out to the bridge of his nose) back in to do an unneeded episiotomy. Then he wrapped the cord around his hand and pulled it out only moments after I had given birth. I hemorrhaged and couldn’t sit up for 8 hours without passing out. With my third child,the interventions I was made to feel forced into caused a lot of birth trauma for my baby and myself as well. I had my last two at home- with beautiful results.

    I believe in survival of the fittest. And I believe in letting go when it’s time to let go.If everyone did, this world would NOT have an overpopulation problem. And as for your attirude about women who believe in nature over intervention, someone told me something once and it stuck with me- “Interfering with ALL birthing women because a few MIGHT have complications is like saying throw ALL men in prison because a few MIGHT rape.”

    There are NO guarantees in ANYTHING we do in this life, and not one of us will come out of it alive- ALL PEOPLE DIE.It isn’t a matter of if, but when and how. And I, for one, would rather die in childbirth than in a plane crash.

    Now, Dr. Amy, dispute my “facts” that all people die. I dare you.

    • You know what? Some people die. Some babies cannot survive the rigors of birth. Some women cannot survive the rigors of birth. Some doctors are willing to do whatever it takes to save extreme preemies, and babies who will ultimately have no quality of life.

      So, okay.

      I had complete placenta previa and developed a conditions euphemised as “unstable hemorrhage” at 32 weeks, 4 days. The rigors of labor and birth would have made us both bleed to death.

      It doesn’t follow from this that I’m not sufficiently fit for survival, or that my daughter, after a period during which she did require a lot of medical support, isn’t sufficiently fit. It certainly isn’t true that my daughter has no quality of life.

      Birth is a situation in which a large number of accidents can occur. Perfectly healthy babies in perfectly healthy mothers can be malpositioned, or have cord accidents. Placentas can fail to work as advertised.

      No doctor can predict what a premature infant’s quality of life will ultimately be. There is certainly a wide variety of outcomes, from the developing world, where babies born as late as 36 weeks are generally expected to die, to places with so many NICU resources available that babies who have made it past 24 weeks gestation stand a very good chance of having few lasting medical problems.

      The wonderful thing about modern obstetrics is that it is so often possible to get patients past these crises involved in birth and enable them to live the rest of their lives. When I started to bleed out, I didn’t have to shrug and say my goodbyes while thinking, hey, at least it’s not a plane crash. I got to a hospital, and now I get to do my best to die of old age. We can’t choose our deaths, but we don’t have to lie down and submit to them when we think they might be coming.

      While I think that the practice of obstetrics could be much improved, and that hands-off care should be practiced more often, by more professionals, I also think that the wholesale rejection of modern obstetrics (as embodied by comments like your opening “some people die”) is irrational.

  6. “I believe in survival of the fittest.”

    It might help then if you actually UNDERSTOOD what “survival of the fittest means.” The “fittest” are those that produce the most offspring that reproduce. It does not matter why the offspring survive, only that they do survive to reproduce.

    Therefore, women who reduce the risk of neonatal death by giving birth in the hospital are more fit than those who let babies die when their deaths could have been avoided.

    • uh huh…and it also refers to the proverbial “weeding of the heard”. The weakest are the first to go…the ones who are too young or sick to be born and left in an incubator for months, then be brain damaged for the rest of their lives. Not everyone would consider that “fittest” and certainly in nature they would be the first to go.

      • This whole line of argument is both incredibly callous, and incredibly ignorant of the current state and practice of neonatology.

        I had a preemie. She was in the NICU for 32 days after her birth. During the first several of those days, she required extensive treatment and assistance in order to breathe. In nature, she’d have been weeded out. Because we have options besides letting nature take its course, we now have a giggly eleven month-old who stands as good a chance of having a full and happy life as any child her age.

        My daughter is not a coyote or a cow. Her death would have been an immeasurable grief to my family. Even if her prematurity had been severe enough to call her survival into question, her humanity remains undeniable.

        This is a civilized society, and so we do not regard women and children as disposable, or as so unimportant that their deaths can just be shrugged off with a reference to the crueler facts of nature.

        • I didn’t say I agreed with the OPer, I was just correcting Dr. Amy.
          I think hospitals OBs have their place – like preterm delivery. It’s important to be in the hospital so that a NICU team is right there ready. And someone else mentioned previa, which is automatically a c-section.

    • I DO understand what survival of the fittest means. It means nature not allowing creatures with poor genetics to survive and pass those genes along, because if they do, it weakens the species.

      And yes, I am very aware that it sounds callous as hell. That’s because Nature IS callous.If it weren’t, no species would survive. But we keep on finding new ways to save those who couldn’t have survived without extreme measures, as well as lengthening the life span.This adds an undue burden on families, communities, and society as a whole. But, we’re afraid of death and feel as if we have every right to try to overcome it- at ANY cost- even when the cost to the species as a whole is too great.

      And just because this is a civilized society does NOT mean we are not still subject to natural law.

      • “That’s because Nature IS callous.If it weren’t, no species would survive. But we keep on finding new ways to save those who couldn’t have survived without extreme measures, as well as lengthening the life span.This adds an undue burden on families, communities, and society as a whole. But, we’re afraid of death and feel as if we have every right to try to overcome it- at ANY cost- even when the cost to the species as a whole is too great. ”

        This line of argument is gravely misinformed.

        Using medical intervention to prevent perinatal death is much like using medical intervention to prevent someone from dying of a broken femur. Both of these events can kill you (indeed, without appropriate medical assistance, the broken femur is far deadlier than labor and delivery), but if the patient makes it past the immediate crisis, the most likely outcome is a return to full health. Women and children who need medical intervention to survive birth are usually indistinguishable from women who did not need that intervention, both before birth itself, and within a year afterward.

        Aside from believing that it’s deeply misogynist to think that it’s fine for women to die in childbirth, just because that’s what happens in nature, I pose this question:

        Who are you to say which people are worthy to live or die? Who are you to decide which people are too great a burden for their families, or for society, to bear? Who are you to declare overpopulation to be such a pressing concern that you have the right to identify which specific individuals ought to be disposed of?

      • Hail Hitler! You would have made a wonderful SS Officer, Sherry J.

        Your Name

  7. Thinking about women ‘needing’ OB’s help.

    My local hospital has a 84% intervention rate and a 26% c-section rate for approx 7000 deliveries a year. I refuse to believe that ALL those women genuinely needed those interventions. If it was scaled to the entire population we would not have survived as a species if this many women needed help to give birth.

    Oh and does Michel Odent not count as an expert of sound research/opinion?

    • My mw with my second pregnancy agreed that, had I had a supportive mw with me with my first, it’s doubtful I would’ve had an assisted delivery. So I agree that it’s doubtful all would’ve needed those interventions.

    • “Oh and does Michel Odent not count as an expert of sound research/opinion?”

      If you mean as an expert in childbirth, then the answer is “No”.

      Michel Odent is trained as a general surgeon, and is registered thus with the British physician registry. He is not an OB, and is not trained in obstetrics, although many people assume that he is.

      You can check the registry for yourself:

      http://www.gmc-uk.org/

      As for his research theories, I doubt that a rational, qualified, OB would leave his wife to freebirth alone at home, in order to preserve the “mystery” of their sexual relationship as he did with the birth of their 3rd child in 1985. This alone discredits Michel Odent in my eyes.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-559913/A-obstetrician-men-NEVER-birth-child.html

      (note that the article makes the mistake of calling him an OB).

      • Regardless of what you or I think of Odent, this logic is getting circular as h3ll. Only OBs are experts in childbirth, so only OBs can criticize obstetrics? Yes. I agree. And cops should only answer to other cops, lawmakers to other lawmakers, military personnel to other military personnel, oil company executives to other oil company executives, etc. Closing ranks is the best way to innovation and the development of best practices. That and elitism. Sounds like a foolproof plan.

  8. Too bad Sarah isn’t around to comment on this. I’d love to see the zingers she’d throw, then the data and statistics she would know and be able to back up. I wonder how her deliver is going/went…..

  9. Ebeth

    Yes, I agree that there needs to be trust if it’s going to be safe. The midwives need to know they can transfer to the hospital as necessary, and the OBs need to trust that the midwife is doing her job correctly, too. My mw said she’d transfer me at the very first sign of something being possibly amiss, which I appreciated. Nothing went wrong, so that wasn’t necessary, but it was nice to know that they had no trouble transferring me if necessary. and since most antenatal care and labour & delivery is attended by midwives here (in England), there wasn’t a trust issue.

  10. aww, really? who summoned the unholy beast?

    reading along, minding my own business, and wham. whalloped by a drive-by bullshitting.

    i got as far as the first ‘it’s all made up’ before i had to stop reading.

    that’s right. it’s all made up. none of it’s real. the stories, the stats, all pulled out of our imaginary ‘happy rainbow and unicorn land’ just to mislead unsuspecting women and pull them over to the dark side so we can rejoice and lick our lips and do our dark dances when it all goes horribly wrong which, of course, it always does…

    jeebus. i gotta stop reading the comments on these things…

    • Yep, those were my thoughts. These arguements have nothing to do with this quote. When somebody pointed that out to Dr. Rant she thought it was a completely appropriate thing to say to somebody DURING their labor.

      • Yeah, but she’s just an idiot when it comes to bedside manner. Luckily, she isn’t practicing so it doesn’t really matter what she thinks is appropriate doctor-patient relations:) Some doctors will NEVER get it and they usually have the highest intervention rates and the lowest patient satisfaction ratings. They also tend to lose a lot of business after one birth and just can’t figure out why.
        It just prove that you can be very book smart and be a total jacka$$ when it comes to people:(

    • Sorry I have actually never laughed at anyone as much as I have laughed at Amy. Yours and Heather P’s comment above have me just about wetting my pants due to the unnecessary interventions I received that caused a necessary episiotomy and now have me with pelvic floor issues…

  11. I’m late posting on this; I don’t get on here much. I was just intrigued.

    I’m not trying to be argumentative here, but I’m trying to find where the Johnson and Daviss paper (which is one I usually cite and don’t want to do so ignorantly) uses hospital studies dating back to 1969? The older citations in the study are mostly regarding homebirth, and I’ve read several of them…Plus, the paper’s methods and analyses are concerned only with hospital vs. homebirth data in 2000. It’s all in 2000. If they’d done a “bait and switch”, I hope to God the reviewers would catch that. I’m just wondering…what am I getting wrong here? And what did all of these reviewers not see that Amy is seeing?

    Is the Farm study totally made up? : It was published in a peer-reviewed public health journal. The Farm study shows good outcomes for births that even I would deem very risky and in need of medical intervention in a hospital.

    These are peer-reviewed scientific articles. They are not made up by “wacky homebirthers”, but medical professionals. I suggest that anyone who just says “It’s made up” make the need for errata in all of these studies known to more folks than just the myobsaidwhat.com community. I’m being completely serious; if there are mistakes in the scientific literature THAT big, then you need to be taking it to the authors and publishers, not people who have made up their minds.

    I’m not attacking anyone here, just pointing out that provoking a group and being condescending is not going to improve the science. In fact, it is scaring women away from obstetrics. OBs who are condescending to other adults, however UNLEARNED the OB may think they are (and I’m not saying anyone here is UNLEARNED, of course), are precisely why many capable young women turn away from obstetrics and pursue midwifery/something completely different (like, in my case, graduate school/midwifery).

    I hate to be “that person” who just comes in, says a comment, and runs off, but I am trying to finish as much as possible of my thesis proposal before I have my first child. At home. With a midwife. I will try to check back sometime if a response is necessary. I’ll let you know my outcome. It will not be “made up”, though obviously the sample size will be too small for statistics. :P

    To address the actual comment: I don’t see enough OBs being called out for bad bedside manner. I think they should, and I think it matters to a patients’ (mother and baby) health and well-being, which is what the OB is supposed to be protecting. I want to hear every surgeon tell a patient “Now, letting me cut you open…THAT is one of the most dangerous things you can do!” Believe me, in the C-sections I’ve seen, they are often (though NOT ALWAYS, of course) unnecessary or a preventive measure because of concerns that come up. In those cases, there is a few minutes to tell the mother the risks of the C-section…but they don’t. It’s just in the teeny tiny script of the paperwork.

    Maternal care in the U.S. is not as great as it could be. I’m just sayin’, folks.

    • I love your last line. “maternal care in the U.S. is not as great as it could be.” Perfect! Dr. Amy spits ans sputters about how many more women would be dead if we still did things the way they were done in 1952. But we really should be worried about how we can improve based on where we are today. More c-sections is not the answer. We have already seen that we are currently deleivering too many babies early due to scheduled c-sections and forced inductions. And the one thing the medical community has got to recognize is that c-section IS an injury to the mother. It isn’t just another method of birth. It is a guarunteed assault on the mother and should only be preformed for a reason. Previous c-section is not a reason. And it is especially not a reason to schedule. Repete c-section upon presentation of labor will prevent many prematurity complications. Even though it is inconvienient to the doctor, it is a better option for both patients’ health. That is my two cents from the woman who failed to deliver on two VBAC attempts.

  12. Dangerous?

    Yeah, if you have an OB when you’re obviously healthy and low risk enough to use a midwife instead. Choosing to birth in a hospital with a surgeon as your primary care provider gives you a one in three chance of preventable abdominal surgery.

    • Not that simple Im afraid. In Australia, if you choose a hospital, you do not get to have “midwife care”. You have a choice between care in a hospital with an obstetrician who leads a team of midwives, or now, thanks to our idiot health minister, care with a home midwife, overseen by an obstetrician who then decides if s/he will LET you birth at home.

      Frickin stupid if you ask me. Why clog the tubes with healthy people?

  13. Just because you try to feed me this line of BS while I’m emotionally vulnerable from all of the hard work I’m doing DOES NOT mean I’ll call you my knight in shining armor, you narcissist with a God complex!

  14. Not at all to be contrary, but I have had three children, all in the hospital, all according to my birth plan, all made flexible to suit my needs and wants, and all with a wonderful, supportive, caring, extremely competent OB, who at no time suggested I do anything that I would have been uncomfortable with, would never have considered using a vacuum, was completely opposed to episiotomy, and was just essentially one hundred percent on my side, and the side of my babies. I am fortunate to be able to say the same for my hospital staff. I live in an area where this is the norm. Babies stay with you in private suites, and breastfeeding is encouraged and supported by professionals. Now, as far as I’m concerned, that is the ideal experience. What I’m wondering, is where are all of these women who post on here about these horrible situations, and ridiculous doctors located? Why would someone be in a situation with THEIR doctor in the delivery room, where their wishes are not being respected? I most certainly not only had time during my pregnancy to look around and find a doctor who’s ideologies were compatible with mine, but also to get to know my doctor well enough to feel confident in her abilities, and that she was my advocate, and was trustworthy, and would go out of her way for me and my babies. How does one spend nine months and end up in a hospital that defies their wishes with a doctor who is disrespectful? I TRULY don’t understand what the underlying circumstances must be for that to occur. It seems that for so many of us who are empowered enough to know so much about what we want and how we want it, we would also make sure that we weren’t stranded at the last second with medical professionals insisting that we jack ourselves full of pain killers we don’t want, and submit to a cesarian we don’t need, or the like. It really just made me curious. I myself am a healthcare professional, which doesn’t color my feelings about doctors from one to the next. Some are good, some bad, it is really about the individual. I have met plenty of hostile nurses, inept physicians, as well as the opposite. I just wonder how you would get far enough to be in labor, and then find out that your OB is snide and the hospital won’t support you’re desire to nurse. It is VERY possible that I am naive about what goes on in other places with regard to these things, and you can be sure that my questions come from a genuine desire for knowledge and understanding. While I may not agree with many of the opinions expressed on this site, I certainly appreciate the right to express them, the differences among us, and the intention with which the site was created. I also appreciate that the differences in experience have given me a reason to inquire, and a chance to learn something today. If anyone has any information, I would really welcome it. Carry on. I am enjoying the discourse. Well. Most of it, anyhow. ;)

    • I’ve not given birth in the US (though I’m from the US), so I can’t answer completely, but I imagine some of that has to do with being restricted by insurance as to which doctor you can see. And that there’s no guarantee your doctor would be able to attend the birth. Some hospitals aren’t designed for rooming in, which isn’t the fault of the doctor; if that’s the only hospital available for the mother, then her choice is again restricted. I don’t know how common that is, though. I agree that there are good and bad medical professionals, just as there are good & bad teachers, lawyers, etc. I like to think the good outweigh the bad in most cases. :-)

    • This post happened to my friend, and I’ll tell you why. We are military wives on a very small, remote island. The options are limited, sadly. She did not feel 100% confident in a freebirth (as there are no homebirth midwives here), so that is why she ended up at the hospital. As for the dr she got (albeit just for a short while as it was shift change), that’s how it works at the Navy hospital. You see who is THERE the day you go into labor, no matter who you liked best of the many drs you saw during your pregnancy. It’s stupid, but that is how it works.
      Know what I’d like to see? MORE compassion and empathy for the moms who endure horrid drs like this. I’ve been there myself, with that same dr and others, and it’s like a knife to the heart to be mocked or heartlessly questioned about it.

      • I appreciate the information that you shared, however I do feel the need to point out that I was very clear about the motivation behind my post. I wanted to know about the experiences of others that differ from my own. I don’t feel that we can ever really learn and grow in life unless we ask questions, and listen to those with differing opinions and histories. If you somehow perceived “mocking” or “heartlessness”, that lies squarely on you. The fact that some of us have to jump to conclusions and be defensive for no legitimate reason is very sad to me. This is why so many of us aren’t able to understand one another, and expand our base of knowledge. I was extremely cognizant to be explanatory, and even self deprecating in an attempt to avoid having anyone feel that I was coming from any place other than one of desire to understand. So thank you for contributing to my awareness of how these situations occur. I don’t believe they ever should. It is completely unacceptable. But I have no interest in being made to seem callous and insensitive for desiring more knowledge than that which I’ve gained from my experiences alone. Some of us ask questions for reasons that don’t involve making someone else appear ignorant.

        • Granted, you’re saying you were not trying to come off as insensitive, and thank you for those intentions, but the section below SURELY did, just for the record. It questioned the validity of some of these stories, and also implied that some of these mothers did not put in the effort to get the best/most respectful birth experience they could…when the reality often is that there aren’t many options in some areas. I simply suggest that you re-read what you wrote and see it from a different point of view.

          “What I’m wondering, is where are all of these women who post on here about these horrible situations, and ridiculous doctors located? Why would someone be in a situation with THEIR doctor in the delivery room, where their wishes are not being respected? I most certainly not only had time during my pregnancy to look around and find a doctor who’s ideologies were compatible with mine, but also to get to know my doctor well enough to feel confident in her abilities, and that she was my advocate, and was trustworthy, and would go out of her way for me and my babies. How does one spend nine months and end up in a hospital that defies their wishes with a doctor who is disrespectful? I TRULY don’t understand what the underlying circumstances must be for that to occur. It seems that for so many of us who are empowered enough to know so much about what we want and how we want it, we would also make sure that we weren’t stranded at the last second with medical professionals insisting that we jack ourselves full of pain killers we don’t want, and submit to a cesarian we don’t need, or the like.”

    • Amy,

      Some women here have been through terrible ordeals with their births, and I believe that that is a legitimate reason for being defensive about one’s birth philosophy.

      That being said, I personally didn’t find your question at all offensive, and I’d be happy to give you my answer!

      I think the main reason some women end up with an OB (or midwife) that does not share their birth philosophy is because so few doctors are on call for their patients these days, at least in my area (Twin Cities, MN). I’m studying to be a doula, and I have attended a few hospital births, and for each one the OB we got was the one on call, period. One of the nurses actually made a remark, “Well, you only have a 1 in 7 shot of getting your OB, that’s the just the way it is!” So some women may find themselves unpleasantly surprised with who they end up with.

      And that’s just the OB! When you factor in shift changes over the course of a long labor, the nurses, the nursery staff, one or more anesthesiologists, the lab staff, etc., a laboring mom is probably going to interact with dozens of different people during her time the hospital. And all it takes is one big jerk to mar someone’s experience. For instance, the last hospital birth I was at, we had a lot of amazing people helping us; the vast majority of them. But the first midwife on call performed a very rough internal exam without warning during a contraction, and the anesthesiologist said a number of really rude things (as well as shoving my client’s body around like a rag doll), and my client came away from the experience with some bad stories and some stuff to work through. So it’s not too surprising that there are bad stories out there. (On the other hand, a woman laboring at home is unlikely to have to deal with any strangers ;) )

      Also, I did a fair amount of research when I was pregnant, and the c-section rates (and rates for other interventions) are all over the map in Minnesota. In the Cities, it’s ok, because we can find out which hospital best fits our needs (as long as said hospital accepts our insurance). But in rural areas, there may literally be only one choice. And smaller hospitals may have restrictive policies, or a small choice of OBs. Another client wanted a VBAC, but she lives in a rural area. Only 1 of the 3 OBs at the nearby hospital would even consider a VBAC, and he had a vacation scheduled for the week of her due date. The hospital also had a very restrictive VBAC policy. Fortunately, my client went into labor naturally, during the day, at 39 weeks, so she got her VBAC! But if she’d gone into labor at night or it had been a week later, she would have had no choice but to have another c-section.

      Does that answer your question? I absolutely agree with you that it’s important to ask questions, try to understand one another and treat each other with respect, and I’m glad you’re willing to stick your nose out an ask a potentially unpopular question!

      -Kate

      • I also wanted to congratulate you on your three wonderful birth experiences! I personally feel like home birth is the best option for *me*, but I would never assume that it’s the best option for *you*! My main concern is that all women get good care in a comfortable environment, and it sounds like that’s exactly what you got! That’s really wonderful.

        I feel like too often the debate centers on shaming or vilifying mothers and their partners for their choices, when we should be concentrating on finding high-quality *options* for different women’s different needs, and supporting one another.

    • For my first, it was a lack of research. I went with the teaching hospital and the practice attached to it. I did really like MY doctor, but as someone else already pointed out, I was not guaranteed him when I delivered. I ended up with the doctor on call, who was horrid. I did not understand my rights as a patient (also lack of research), and therefore got pushed down on my back with every contraction, assaulted with very painful VEs, and eventually bullied into a cesarean.
      With my second, I had no options in my town. There was one hospital, and they don’t allow VBACs. I traveled to a nearby city that had a decent midwives’ practice, and had an induced VBAC at 40wks3d.
      I am now pregnant with my third, and I have recently moved to a state with a 40% cesarean rate. I have Medicaid, which limits my options severely. There is a birth-friendly hospital, but there are only two doctors who deliver there. One does not do VBACs, and the other (which comes very highly recommended) does not take medicaid. So I have found another OB (again, midwives are not an option for me since they are not covered), who will hopefully be calling me this week, since they finally were able to get my medical records. As far as I have been able to research, this practice is really my only option for a good birth experience. And you better believe I am still gearing up for a fight. After what happened the first time, I am incapable of really trusting medical professionals with my child’s birth.
      I have a friend who had three sections before she finally got her vaginal birth. As I understand it, she had two options in the entire country. Dr. Cummings in Dallas and Dr. Tate in Atlanta. Her and her husband drove three hours from TN to Atlanta so she could have her vaginal birth.
      Not all of us have the options you do. I am so glad to hear there is a place that is like that, though. Where do you live?

  15. women do die in or as a result of childbirth.. and if u think they dont coz this is the 21st century then u r deluded.. childbirth IS dangerous for mother and child, maybe not as dangerous as being on the road in a 1 tonne projectile.. but still dangerous nonetheless..

    • You’re kidding right? NO one here claims women don’t sometimes die in childbirth. The issue is that this mom was fearmongered while she was trying to breathe through her contractions. The dr was mean, and not remotely helpful.
      Birth is as safe as life gets….in that it’s not perfect or risk free, and never will be.

  16. Are people STILL arguing over this?! Yes, birth can turn into something dangerous. But that doesn’t mean it’s ok for care provider to act like dolts and tell women they could die at any moment when they are in labor.
    This post was about a lack of respect for the laboring mother, not about whether or not the OB was correct.
    Birth is actually safe for most women when they are left to let nature do it’s thing. About 10% need help. But the majority of the time, things get dicey only after an OB or MED-wife has interveined.

  17. My biggest mistake here has been ever going to this site. I had to see it for my own eyes to believe it, but should not of taken part in such an incredible amount of hypocrisy and stupidity. An entire site dedicated to pointing out the faults and mistakes of others, through comments and posts means that the world truly is coming to an end. When I consider that many of you visit again and again hungry to read about some other person’s mistake eager to bash and ridicule without hesitation I want to vomit. What a sick group of women. If only we could all have someone follow us around all day to point out what we do wrong. When you consider how many stupid things you have said to people do you find yourself having a reason that you wish you could explain to people? Perhaps unlike these poor victims you had a chance to apologize. The only thing I can take from my very short experience with “my OB said what”is that I am so grateful to be able to be realistic that the world is full of people making mistakes and saying stupid things, especially after long days of work and really stressful work environments where saving lives is one of your job requirements (just a small little task right?) I hope that in 2011 you can find perhaps more forgiveness and gratitude for the people who are doing there best. Maybe by 2012 this site can become nonexistent and all of the “perfect” people on here can get a life. Who are we kidding though. Mocking and scorning others is your specialty and passion. Raising children and finding good in others is mine. Stay classy ladies!

    • I can’t speak for everyone, but some people, like myself, don’t come here just to read about peoples mistakes. I think you’re confused about why we come here. We’re here because this has happened to us, and reading that these things have happened to others helps us feel like we’re not alone. Doctors, nurses, and midwives who’ve attended our births have said or done horrible, nasty things to us, made us feel like we’re worthless, stupid, and broken. We struggle with depression and sometimes PTSD, and the family around us isn’t always supportive or helpful when dealing with these issues. We’re told to shut up and deal with it, since the baby is healthy. So we come here to share our experiences (anonymously sometimes)and feel like we aren’t all alone. That what happened to us wasn’t all right, it was wrong. That it’s okay to feel the way we feel. No one here is claiming to be perfect. None of us are. But we’ve learned since these things have happened to us. And we get angry sometimes. We get angry that this is still happening to other women. If you don’t like this site, you don’t have to visit it. A lot of us hope that this site won’t be needed anymore, that laboring and pregnant women will be treated with respect, and given evidence-based care. Until then, we’re glad we have someplace where it’s okay for us to be angry, and work through that angry, because some of us have no one else who’ll listen or help.

      • Thank you. You worded that exactly how it’s written in my heart.

        • Thank you, Panda. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
          I might also add, though, that this site is here because there is an obvious problem. Someone has to pop the bubble that is modern obstetrics – I know I was one of those women who trusted my body, my baby and my birth with my Ob, and ended up having an unnecessary cesarean – how many other women have had this experience? THOUSANDS. MILLIONS, even. The number keeps growing. It needs to be known and known well that doctors ARE human, they DO make mistakes and that information is power!
          I personally find nothing funny in these quotes – I find each and every one of them horrifying, and my heart hurts for all the women who are bullied and coerced into going against their instincts by people who think they know a woman’s body better than the woman herself.

          Modern technology has it’s place – but it should not interfere with the natural process of birth “just in case” something goes wrong.

          • Yeah, well, I’m pretty sure Klee said what she said because she feels judged and condemned for having chosen a medicalized birth… and the only option to being angry about the system and its foibles, especially if you got screwed over by in in the name of “having a healthy baby,” is to get angry at the people who point out that they system is wrong and you got screwed over.

            She wouldn’t be the first mother on here to get defensive like that. Nor will she be the last. Skimming the replies to this thread (the zombie thread that keeps getting awakened; I just got something in my inbox about a new post!) “Stop mocking me” seems to be a recurring theme.

            We’re mocking the health care providers, not mothers, but it doesn’t seem to matter.

            I think it’s probably easier to identify with and defend a broken system than it is to reject it and fight for a better way.

            Occupy your wombs.

          • Sorry for the typos. I think I need bifocals. (I’m getting old…)

    • not sure why you wasted your breath, what with all the children you are busy raising. You seem to be the one judging here…. just sayin…

  18. I used to work for a life insurance agent. The applications were very long and listed all sorts of risky behaviors that could get a person “rated.” These were things that increased the likelihood of death, and subsequent payout, such that the insurance company was going to charge them more for the policy.

    The list included riding motorcycles, being in the armed forces, parachuting, scuba diving, smoking, etc., etc., but not pregnancy and not labor.

    There was an extensive list of medical conditions that had to be checked off not only for the applicant, but also for the applicant’s immediate family, just in case something might be genetic. No mention of obstetric complications on that list either.

    Also, telling a woman in the midst of contractions that she is in horrible danger is like shining a laser pointer into the eyes of a jockey in the midst of a race. DICK MOVE. DICK MOVE, DUDE.

  19. Birth is most dangerous when interfered with.

  20. I recently read this same comment from an OB. I wonder if they are the same??

  21. If all the abortionforbidders and those “teachers” who deny young people information about their reproductive health, would get this sentence tattooed somewhere on their(!) bodies, this sentence would describe a fact.
    But the situation it was said is uniquely untimely and hurtful.

    • I too have noticed that antis seriously ignore that birth does come with serious risks worth consideration.

      It’s not the most dangerous thing a woman can do, anymore. Until the turn of the turn of the 20th century, maternal death was the leading cause of death in American women of reproductive age, or so I’ve read. It’s only with modern medical advances that the maternal death rate is lowered. Still, 1,000 women die from complications in pregnancy and birth every day worldwide.

      Funny the antis never see fit to mention that when they pretend abortion is so dangerous.

  22. It’s much safer now than it was 100 years ago.
    At the turn of the century it was one of the most common ways women would die!
    Glad to be delivering a baby these days with a doc in a hospital than in a field somewhere with some female relative who kinda knows what she’s doing.

    • Jesus…SERIOUSLY?! You think that before hospitals women gave birth in fields with no one but a relative who has given birth before?! No one is arguing that birth isn’t safer than it was 100 years ago – you know…before germs and necessary medical intervention.
      You give nurses a bad name with such ignorance :( My friends who are L&D nurses are glad to be able to deliver at home with a CNM after seeing the shit that doctors pull in the hospital!

      It’s much safer now than it was 100 years ago.
      At the turn of the century it was one of the most common ways women would die!
      Glad to be delivering a baby these days with a doc in a hospital than in a field somewhere with some female relative who kinda knows what she’s doing.

      • Excellent to discover that having a sense of humor and the use of sarcasm gives nurses a bad name!

        Thank you for opening my eyes!

        Make whatever choice you want to birth your child, but there’s nothing ignorant about saying delivering a baby today is much safer than it has been in the past.

        • So you can’t read either?! Lordy…I specifically wrote that, yes, birth is safer now than 100 years ago when doctors went from patient to patient without washing hands or changing clothes and when there were no intervention options for women who really needed them. What was ignorant was pretending that before doctors stole birth away from midwives, everyone was giving birth in fields without any professional help.
          Doctors aren’t the only people who have learned how to make birth safer in the last 100 years, birth, OVER ALL has gotten safer as women, midwives, and doctors have done more research. Technology has it’s place, but your statement that you are safer for no other reason than because you are in a hospital with a doctor instead of in a “field with a relative who kinda knows what she’s doing” shows a lack of any real knowledge of what birth used to be and what it has become. It’s like me saying I’m glad to be delivering at home with a CNM and all her sterile equipment than 100 years ago with a doctor who had just performed surgery on a leper and didn’t bother to change his apron. Sure, it’s true, but it’s an idiotic comparison.
          EVERYONE is safer giving birth EVERYWHERE with ANYONE than they were 100 years ago. We just know more about how to make birth safe. You don’t need your doctors and hospitals to have a safer birth these days, just a brain and the ability to read.

  23. I was thinking about this post and I believe in order to properly consider the danger of pregnancy you have to consider the entier 266 days you spend pregnant not just the one you deliver on. Because heck you could birth or miscarry on any of them. Just like Dr. Amy’s theory on getting in a car. Comparing the 3 times I gave birth and 0 deaths is like comparing the 0 times I have been in moving car accident (I only hit parked things and got bumped once at a stop sign) with 0 deaths. Comparing the approx 800 days I spent pregnant would be equivalent to the 30,000 times I’ve gotten in a car.

  24. Dr. Lisa said this on The Doctors the other day and I was so annoyed. I can’t stand that woman or the show but they had something I wanted to see so I DVR’d it to fast forward through the crap!

  25. She probably meant to say… “Childbirth UNDER MY CARE is one the most dangerous thing a woman can to today.”

  26. I know this has nothing to do with the orginal post as most of this doesnt. But with regards to Dr. Amy when your kids grow up and decide to have kids of their own. I hope they are home births so you begin to understand that they are just as safe as the ones in the hosiptal.

    • I somehow doubt that’s the way it would go…

      I’ve been wondering, after reading her blog and her reaction to this blog (conspiracy theories and all), whether Dr. Tuteur is possibly on the autism spectrum? She seems to have a very difficult time empathizing with others or accepting that other’s experiences have reality, she is extremely fixated on a single topic and spends what must be an unhealthy amount of time interacting online, she is more comfortable with numbers and statistics than people or emotions, and she often says outright insensitive things when faced with women who have had difficult childbirth experiences.

      I know internet armchair psycho-analysis is of limited use, but keeping this possibility in mind certainly helps me put Dr. Amy in some kind of perspective and reminds me not to rise to the bait. :-)

      • I never thought of that but it
        sounds logical… I do wonder about someeone who goes out of her way to be so unpleasant, stalking, commenting and wasting her time online to harass people she doesn’t know…
        She is ureasonable, refuses to even listen to her ‘peers’ and uses ridicule and humiliation to make a point. Also will not answer a direct question posed to her, deflects and denegrates the questioner constantly… Or ignores MD’s etc., who try and question her… Hard not to wonder if she doesn’t have something seriously wrong, physically, emotionally or psychiatric in nature…. I wonder if she has a spouse or children…. or partner…

  27. A true statement, but horrendous timing. Wow.

  28. wow! thanks for that amazing document. I actually cherished it on the main. Hope you keep submitting like amazing reports

  29. I realize the “Dr. Amy” Posts are over 2 years old. But just to throw this out there, ALL babies die. All of them. No one lives forever, so why should it matter how they are born? At home or a hospital? Its the mothers choice or medically necessary either way. Don’t see why the argument should go any further than that. I prefer homebirth/birth center because i was molested BY A FEMALE DOCTOR so hospitals will never be something i have anything to do with willingly. so its my personal preference. But if I have a complication, I would comply to go to a hospital to save mine and my childs life if necessary. So “Dr Amy” please do us all a favor and take your unnecessary comments and uncited comments elsewhere and/or shove it. Thanks.

  30. My grandmother died of childbirth in the early 50s. She lived in Mississippi during Jim Crow laws and was a poor farmer’s wife.

    It is just my personal opinion that childbirth is safer now, not really because women are having babies in hospitals, but because better prenatal care is available. Health issues that could be problems during/shortly after birth can often be taken care of with good prenatal care.

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