Posted by My OB said WHAT?!?.
Aug
3
Posted by My OB said WHAT?!?.
“I Highly Doubt You Have The Intelligence To Read A Medical Journal…”
“I highly doubt you have the intelligence to read a medical journal…let alone understand how statistics work from what you can read on the internet.” -OB to mother who wanted to speak about the risk of VBAC.
There are 62 comments to this post.
Oh. My. Goodness. Level of education does NOT equate to intelligence. There are geniuses who never completed high school and people who are barely above carrots who have managed to lie, cheat, and bribe themselves into degrees. Especially among mothers you can never tell by education level how intelligent they are (I know its not a pc statement but woman who choose to leave the workforce and raise their kids can be highly intelligent). This is nothing more than an extreme God complex and I hope the mother spouted off a sharp rebutal and walked out! But it’s such a horrible thing to say that the insulted mother was probably too stunned to do much more than stare. I know it would have taken me a few minutes to recover from such blatant stupidity on the part of the doctor to rally a defense, and I not only have a fully working knowledge of statsics but have been reading technical journals from a very young age. Some people are just so insecure in their own intelligence that all they can do is belittle other’s.
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THe Deranged Housewife had this to say,
Aug 3, 2010 @ 5:27 am (Quote)
*grrrrr* I feel a blog post brewing ….
Doctors aren’t the only one who say things like this; other women do, too. As if because you ‘read things on the Internet! GASP!” that you can’t possibly understand anything, and that everything on the internet is completely disreputable.
Stick it, doctor. I think I’ll go find a new doctor … on the internet. 
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This is part of my story…the kicker is that soon after he said this (all while I was naked from the waste down with my feet in the stirrups waiting for an internal exam/pap)he went on to tell me that if I tried to look into a homebirth that I would have to sign a waiver exonerating him of responsibility for the outcome. He also told me that I was going to die and leave my husband a widower and my children motherless. He also told me that my midwife had less education than his mechanic down the street and that I would probably be better off giving birth in the garage with his mechanic than with my midwife…. At which point I then looked at him and told him “this isn’t going to work out” got dressed and stormed out of his office…
Little did he know I had actually ready the summaries on the ACOG website and got the VBAC stats straight from there. The stats he was quoting me were lies, and I think he was angry that I caught him lying to me….
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The Deranged Housewife Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:02 am (Quote)
Yep, that sounds about right. 
Good for you!
I caught my doctor doing the same thing. I sat there and silently wished to myself that I had printed out the studies and brought them with me.
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Jane Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:24 am (Quote)
I wonder if you could report him to the state licensing board and the hospital where he practices. Not to mention your insurance company. He called you too stupid to give informed consent, and he did it while you were half-dressed, which I believe could be construed as sexually harassing.
You couldn’t get a legal judgment against him for that, but you might get some attention if you file a complaint, or get the NEXT woman’s complaint some more attention.
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Mama Mirage Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:45 am (Quote)
This type of doc is why I avoid doctors like the plague. A bunch of air-inflated heads thinking they are all that and a bag of chips and really all they are is the dip because their head’s so full of their giant ego there is no room for common sense.
And secondly, good for you, mama! I feel so sorry for that doc’s wife if he has one. Imagine how he makes her feel on a daily basis. He’s one sorry individual. I’m so glad you walked out. I don’t know if I would have been brave enough!
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Heather P Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 8:39 am (Quote)
Good for you Emily! Congrats on the HBAC as well. 
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Alyson Miers Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 10:22 am (Quote)
He also told me that my midwife had less education than his mechanic down the street and that I would probably be better off giving birth in the garage with his mechanic than with my midwife….
Huh. Level of education compared to occupation can mean a lot of things. I have a BA, and at the moment that and $3.50 gets me a latte at Starbucks. My mom became an RN and later went through a year of midwifery school to become a midwife. His mechanic might have a PhD in astrophysics, for all we know, but that’s got nothing to do with how qualified your midwife is to assist in your childbirth. Like I’ve said before, I’ve taught English to a bunch of moronic teenagers whom I’d trust to attend my childbirth more than I’d trust a doctor like that one.
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JulietsButterfly Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:54 am (Quote)
You really never know with mechanics since they tend not to display their diplomas in the shop or anything. My FIL, however, passed the bar and was a lawyer before giving that up to become a mechanic. Never judge a book by its cover. People can always prove to be smarter or dumber than you think.
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((dumber))
Melissa Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 11:00 am (Quote)
Good for you for being too smart for him!
Oh, and given his reaction to you, I wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t intelligent enough to read or understand those same medical journals! It’s deep in human nature to compensate for our own self-doubt by projecting it on others. So you not only proved him wrong (VBAC numbers, facts, etc.) you also proved yourself smart and independent (calling him on what he said and marching out). No wonder he was threatened by you and felt the need to “put you in your place!”
My hat’s off to you.
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Sarah Dorrance-Minch Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 1:08 pm (Quote)
Good for you for walking out.
The analogy with the car mechanic is amusing, considering that the vast majority of obstetricians seem to see pregnant women as being vehicles and baby-catching as a form of mechanics.
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I had a friend who had a doctorate and was a research scientist. Well she still is. She gave me her research papers to read on the studies she was doing on spinal muscular atrophy which involved rather complicated trials in mice. I thought it was really nice that she would have confidence in my ability to understand the information, even though it was very technical and I don’t have a college degree. I realized how different that was from most people when I asked a friend of hers what he did in the lab and he just looked at me like I was crazy for asking and muttered that I wouldn’t understand it if he told me. Education can sometimes give people an inflated sense of themselves.
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Jane Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:28 am (Quote)
A woman on one of my parenting forums was getting checked in for her annual physical by the GYN nurse (the weigh-in, the blood pressure, etc) and when the nurse asked about birth control, the woman responded that she uses natural family planning. The nurse sniffed and said something derisive, and the mom responded that she had researched the matter quite thoroughly and was pleased with it.
The nurse then said to her, “And where did YOU get your medical degree?”
She replied, “I got my MD at XXXXXXXXX. Where did you get yours?” Yep, she was a medical doctor.
The nurse had the common sense to be very, very quiet through the rest of the visit. (And after that, I decided that was definitely a parenting board I wanted to stay on. LOL!)
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Susan Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:40 am (Quote)
Would’ve loved to have met that doctor. I’m an instructor for the Billings Ovulation Method of NFP, and have to fend off comments from people at times. Very frustrating.
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Sarah Dorrance-Minch Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 1:05 pm (Quote)
NFP is HIGHLY effective when used right. It’s not for everybody, but then, what birth control method is?
People think, “Oh, rhythm method. Sure. Enjoy your impending unplanned parenthood.” And when NFP fails, it confirms their bias nicely.
When the Pill, Mirena, or spermicidal condoms fail, it’s seen as a fluke.
(I am not including Depo-Provera because it seems to be the “wild card” of chemical birth control – lots of women overreact to it and contend with leftover infertility for years, or underreact and get pregnant on it, sometimes with multiples. I’m also not including diaphraghms because the statistics show an effectiveness of 85% at best, and that’s in conjunction with spermicide. That’s worse than typical effectiveness of condoms that are used without extra spermicide, and about as effective as the contraceptive sponge. NFP is closer to 95% if used properly.)
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Honeybee Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 8:14 pm (Quote)
Depo has some other not so nice side affects, at least for me. Don’t forget that you can get pregnant up to two weeks after the first shot, but if you do get pregnant while on Depo-prevara it puts added risk on the baby. And then try to get your hormones normal once you stop taking it. Spotting for 3-5 weeks inconsistently is NOT fun.
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Susan Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 11:14 pm (Quote)
Exactly! Billings actually has a 97-99.5% effectiveness when used properly (going from the WHO study), though (sorry, shameless plug ). So yeah, there’s that chance of unplanned conception, but there’s a similar chance with the pill.
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Sarah Dorrance-Minch Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 3:50 pm (Quote)
NFP is useful for more than just birth control/planning/timed conception.
I have an irregular cycle even now when my body weight is healthier than it was when I was young, so I don’t feel comfortable using NFP without backup. However, NFP lets me predict my PMS – again, not perfectly, because I’m irregular, but well enough to give advance warning to people that That Time Of The Month is coming soonish and they probably want to stay out of my way for a while, if they can help it. (My PMS is bad enough to almost be psychotic.) This, in turn, relieves some of the stress I feel, which makes my PMS a little easier to weather because that’s one hypersensitivity I won’t have to endure while suffering the monthly fluctuations of my hormones. (As with pregnancy, PMS makes my autistic hypersensitivities and social anxieties go through the roof, which is probably one reason my PMS makes me such a flaming bitch.)
Another good thing NFP is good for is helping girls and women become more comfortable with their own bodies. Too many of us are raised to think that we are dirty or ugly, that our reproductive organs are “nasty” somehow, that we shouldn’t touch ourselves or even think about our vaginas for any reason. It’s a horrible attitude to instill. I think all girls should be taught NFP at menarche, as a way to familiarize ourselves with our own bodies and learn a little more self love. Nobody should ever feel that her vagina is “nasty.”
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Sheva Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 4:44 pm (Quote)
Well said. I want to to think about it for my daughters.
Totally off topic, but when did/will you ladies start discussing this with your daughters? I have a 7 year old and I thought I knew what to say and when but now I’m not sure. Any ideas or resources?
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Julie Reply:
August 10th, 2010 at 3:24 pm (Quote)
My husband and I both talk to our sons and daughters freely about sex, reproduction, and childbirth. We bring it up all the time, just like you’d bring up anything else. I’m not a fan of “age-appropriate” guidelines: usually that’s just a way of saying to your kids “I highly doubt you have the intelligence to understand the truth, so I’ll dumb it down.” Kids are SMART and they can learn and understand more than you give them credit for.
I also think a lot of the reluctance to talk to kids is because of sex-negative attitudes. Bodies are beautiful and amazing and kids don’t need to be protected from knowing the truth.
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Susan Reply:
August 5th, 2010 at 12:54 am (Quote)
Oh yes, it’s very useful for irregular cycles, too. I don’t think I’ve had a 28-day cycle in my life, or if I have, I don’t remember it because it was so long ago. Especially with breastfeeding.
I also agree that it’s very good at helping women to be familiar with their own bodies. I’m a total geek, but I love knowing what’s going on. I love that I can look at my chart and know what my hormones are doing. It can also be helpful in identifying any health problems. I actually know of a woman who was able to catch cervical cancer early because she noticed that her cervical mucus had suddenly changed to something that was abnormal for her.
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sandi Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:37 am (Quote)
Sara – i am in the health care/laboratory area atm going back into midwifery – when family and friends need papers on a topic i get them (university access to PubMed journals!) i’ll review some papers, hand them over and let them know if they have any questions to please ask – no matter what the question is! Sometimes people are shocked that i expect them to do some of the research themselves – i tell them – i’ll get you started, if you want/need more let me know what you want. Most of the time the medics just tell people what they (medics) want followed which is pretty much inexcusable to me – you need to let people figure out what they want/need you can help them get started but you cannot have an informed consumer if you do not teach them how.
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I’m a SAHM and also a member of MENSA. I read journals and technical articles for fun. What’s your IQ, doc?
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Serene Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 12:39 am (Quote)
Yay!
Pleased to meet you
What chapter?
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Maria Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 4:43 am (Quote)
Maryland/American Mensa. I took a practice exam almost 10 yrs ago, but never got around to taking the “offiial” test. Then I learned that I could submit my IQ testing instead. Did that, joined, but haven’t really participated yet because of my two party poopers…I mean, kids.
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qtberryhead had this to say,
Aug 3, 2010 @ 6:15 am (Quote)
While I don’t agree with the doctors comment about intelligence, I do(kind of)agree with him in regards to statistics. MANY statistics can and are misinterpretted, and they are often biased. It depends on the source, that’s why it’s good to get your info from many sources and to ask questions…which is exactly what Emily did. It’s difficult to get a good reading on homebirth safety when planned and unplanned homebirths are often lumped into one category, but even then the stats often favor homebirth;)
There are midwives out there with very little education, they’re not all equal…kind of like doctors. Needless to say, sticking with this OB would have ended up in another c-section.
Although I have no statistics to support that…it’s just a hunch. I would have written the OB a nice thank you note for being such an ass, because that comment would have had me looking elsewhere too.
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Emily Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 6:24 am (Quote)
Yeah, he also didn’t know that I have a Bachelor’s degree and I graduated with honors. I was also a member of ICAN and had been a practicing doula for 2 years (now 4). I knew a little bit about what I was talking about..he just assumed that I was a stupid stay at home mom and military wife, and hadn’t read actual journal articles and stats from real medical studies. I also thoroughly interviewed three different midwives in my area and got recommendations and resources from previous clients of hers. needless to say she was amazing and I’m looking forward to getting pregnant again and hiring her again.
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The Deranged Housewife Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:05 am (Quote)
I agree – the results of studies and statistics can definitely be misinterpreted and skewed. Then there’s the problem of incidents being underreported, which leads to false results. The problem is, I think that we as human beings can still understand a certain level of risk and what those risks might be. Dr. Amy seems to think that women are incapable of doing this – perhaps as a result of flawed studies that then skew the statistics in an unfavorable direction for no reason, when really it should say quite the opposite.
(Did any of that make sense? I’m not sure … LOL)
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egghead Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 11:09 am (Quote)
When the headline says “VBAC unsafe” and the study actually says “Cytotech can kill” you know there is a disconnect somewhere. Most doctors aren’t any better at statistics than anybody else. I’ve read some very flawed studies that never should have even been done in the first place.
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Sarah Dorrance-Minch Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 12:58 pm (Quote)
*We* know that VBAC doesn’t kill people, aggressive induction kills people.
But hey, what do we count? We’re not the ones in love with the technology and the convenient little pharmaceuticals. So why shouldn’t the cart pull the horse?
Sigh
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Liz Chalmers had this to say,
Aug 3, 2010 @ 6:54 am (Quote)
It amazes me that some doctors will elevate themselves to superhuman status. It’s so groundless. I’m more intelligent than some of the doctors I encounter, I just lack the broad medical training they’ve received.
When I was diagnosed with cervical cancer 13 years ago, I realized that I could become *more* expert than my doctor in that one area, since it was all I needed to study, whereas he needed to stay up to date with all of obstetrics and gynecology. (Luckily, I had an awesome doc who appreciated a well-read patient and gave me time for all my questions about the options he presented).
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Thoughtful Birth had this to say,
Aug 3, 2010 @ 7:53 am (Quote)
“Okay, doc. Let me refer you to the whitepaper at e-patients.net. If you can’t move forward into the world of collaborative medicine, you’re history. Call me when you join the 21st century.”
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Mama Mirage had this to say,
Aug 3, 2010 @ 8:02 am (Quote)
This overinflated jerkface doc reminds me of the ER doc I had who staunchly insisted I had food poisoning despite my insisting that this was not food poisoning and then I told him “DO NOT send me home with those stupid anti nausea meds. I’m throwing up from PAIN- just send me pain meds. I DO NOT have food poisoning!” so he sends me home with a pile of anti nausea meds. After doing my own research I figured out I’d had a gallbladder attack. The doc refused to consider it because the pain I was feeling was in the wrong place and I’d never had one before. Even though he knew I had a NEWBORN BABY and that a- internal organs are a bit displaced for a while during and following pregnancy and b- gallbladder attacks are common right after giving birth in women who don’t otherwise have them. Genius. But of course despite my just having given birth, having had food poisoning before and knowing what it felt like, and my repeatedly telling him I was not throwing up from upset stomach, I was throwing up from PAIN, he had to show me who was boss by sending me home with a bag of nausea meds. Which I of course didn’t think to read the labels on until I got in the car and saw that he’d given me the wimpiest pain drug possible and two bottles of anti nausea crap. I was in agony… writhing, bawling agony… all night long because the meds he gave me were worthless. Arrogant sadistic jerks like this are why some people avoid medical personnel like the plague…
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Kristen Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:11 am (Quote)
I had a similar experience with an ER doctor when I had a gall bladder attack the week after my son was born. He said, “There is blood in your urine, you may have kidney stones, blah, blah, blah” and proceeded to list about a dozen other things. I said to him, “I had a baby exactly 1 week ago, THAT’S what has caused the blood in the urine!”
Ugh, of course this is after 2 gall bladder attacks during pregnancy were dismissed as ligament pain by the Nurse Practitioner at my OBs office.
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Penny in TX Reply:
August 6th, 2010 at 5:26 pm (Quote)
My husband brought me to an ER after I had had a stroke. I was harangued for taking blood pressure meds while nursing a toddler, rebuked for crying, then diagnosed with a urinary tract infection and send home with a script for antibiotics. That was in 2002 and I still don’t think I’ve gotten over it.
Now, I didn’t know that I’d had stroke either (let’s face it–I wasn’t exactly hitting on all cylinders at the time), but I knew it was something affecting my neurological system. When I got in to my PCP’s office two days later I was immediately recognized as having neurological symptoms and sent for an MRI, which diagnosed the stroke. Thankfully I recovered from the stroke well and received treatment to prevent future strokes.
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Jade Reply:
November 7th, 2010 at 5:10 pm (Quote)
My gall bladder problems went undiagnosed for 3 years, I was told it was a sprained inter costal ligament, it was a broken rib, it was panic attacks, it was heart palpitations, I was making it up…etc etc etc
It wasn’t until I had an ultrasound with my eldest child and the tech accidentally ran the transducer over my upper abdomen that it was picked up. Even after this when I was at the hospital every single day for more pethidine nobody would listen, I was told to stop vomiting, stop making noise while I vomited, stop coming to the hospital because it was psychological, to go home because they couldn’t do anything for me because I was pregnant..and so on. Eventaully I got a surgical registrar who saw how ridiculous this was and that I could not possibly spend the next 18 weeks of my (pregnant) life like this. He rang around the state to find a surgeon who a) was experienced in the old style open gall bladder surgery and b) was ok with doing it on a 22 week pregnant mama. I can never thank him enough, I don’t particularly like my huge scar but it is a LOT better than dealing with gallstones while I was pregnant was.
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Compare this comment to the one yesterday where the OB couldn’t tell the difference between a fibroid and the fact that s/he had yanked out the mother’s placenta. Hmph. Not intellegent enough to read, my ass.
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Melissa Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 9:58 am (Quote)
Yeah. These two posts together remind me of the joke that goes something like this:
Q: What do you call the bottom 10% of graduates of Med school?
A: Doctor.
Passing the MD exams weeds out a few of the idiots, but not nearly enough.
I once had an anesthesiologist refuse to answer a direct question about whether he had added anything to the IV line just prior to a D&C for “failed” miscarriage. He sat down on the edge of the bed, took my hand, and told me, “well, you see, sometimes we give patients a mixture of water and salt to keep them from dehydrating…” I cut him off with a “you mean “saline drip?” and then grilled him again on whether he had or would shortly add something to the line and what they would use for anesthesia. He never did answer. I finally got the nurse to give me the info I wanted.
Hey, doc…I’m not 13. I’m nearly 30, and have a bunch of academic letters after my name, too. And even if I were young or less educated than you it is ABSOLUTELY your job to answer my questions in a respectful manner, in a way I can understand, and without condescension.
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Sarah Dorrance-Minch Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 12:55 pm (Quote)
Wouldn’t it be ironic if it were the same doctor saying both quotes?
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I so hope this wasn’t a military doctor too. Isn’t there ever any good ones out there?
I have to agree with the Doctor though: compared with him you may have been better off giving birth at the garage. At least you know they read the manuals.
Good for you for finding someone who respected you. What a horrible little man.
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Jane Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 1:40 pm (Quote)
Yeah, but think of the billing? “Well, ma’am, that baby was a little tougher to deliver than we thought. It’ll be fifty dollars for the chux pads, the scissors and the warm compresses, and we bill labor at seventy dollars an hour. Get it? Charges for labor? I never get tired of that one! Anyhow, we don’t have the umbilical cord clamps you need right now, so we’ve phoned our supplier and should have them in a day or so. We’ll call when the baby is ready. Have a nice day!”
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Sarah Dorrance-Minch had this to say,
Aug 3, 2010 @ 12:54 pm (Quote)
I’m smart enough to fire you.
BTW, the only reason I am not a member of MENSA, despite having passed their official IQ test (which is a lot harder than the Stanford-Binet) is that it costs too much money. When I took the test years ago, membership was roughly sixty five dollars a year. I say “roughly” because I’m guessing at the rate of exchange. I took the test for a lark, when I was doing graduate study at Oxford.
Yes, that Oxford.
By the way, where did you go to med school, again?
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производство металлоконструкций had this to say,
Aug 18, 2011 @ 10:50 am (Quote)
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testosterone had this to say,
Dec 1, 2011 @ 1:12 pm (Quote)
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“I’m sorry, I guess I’m too stupid to be your client. I’ll go elsewhere.”
I sincerely hope that after the doctor said this, the mom didn’t remain in the office for longer than it took to gather her coat and purse.
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Emily Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 5:40 am Emily(Quote)
that’s exactly what I did. I looked at him and told him it wasn’t going to work out and left his office in favor of hiring a home birth midwife, went on to have my son at home. It was WONDERFUL!
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Sheva Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 6:10 am Sheva(Quote)
Yes!
You’re awesome!
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Jane Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:10 am Jane(Quote)
Awe. Some. You win.
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Sandi Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:32 am Sandi(Quote)
Emily – congrats to you for standing up for yourself!
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Stephanie - Home with the Kids Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 8:41 am Stephanie - Home with the Kids(Quote)
Great job. No one needs to deal with a doctor that arrogant.
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