Posted by My OB said WHAT?!?.
Dec
18
Posted by My OB said WHAT?!?.
“What The Hell Is Wrong With You…?”
“What the hell is wrong with you?? You let me check you earlier!”- OB to mother, shoving her legs aside while attempting to break her water at 1.5 cm dilation. Mother was moaning and upset at the pain.
There are 39 comments to this post.
Jennifer Z. had this to say,
Dec 18, 2009 @ 5:59 pm (Quote)
You know, I see this all the time on this site where people say “if that had happened to me, I would have kicked/hit/punched that doctor.” This is essentially the same exact thing as telling a rape victim “if that man had tried assaulting me, I would have kicked him in the face.” It’s like you’re saying that this could not have happened to you because you would have successfully physically fought with the person and not allowed it. How do you think that makes a victim of an assault like this feel? As if they did not try hard enough to fight back perhaps? It seems like a subtle way of blaming the victim, and it is what our society does to women who have been raped. In a situation where this happens, the last thing that comes to your mind is physically assaulting the care provider. And that is a very good thing, because if you did, CPS would be called in no time, you would be declared crazy, and you would go home without your baby.
To the woman who had this happen, I am very sorry, it must have been extremely frightening and upsetting. Things like this should not be happening in maternity care, but sadly they do and women end up traumatized from it. Go to http://www.solaceformothers.org for support if you feel traumatized by this.
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Knitted in the Womb Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 6:15 pm (Quote)
You are right in that.
I think though, that the people who say “I would have hit/kicked….” are saying what they *wish* they would be able to do. The truth is that a woman is in a very vulnerable position at this point, and really can’t do it. And you are right about the CPS issue.
I can only hope that LOTS of OB’s are reading this blog, and some of them are actually talking about it, and through that, they might do some soul searching and realize how their actions impact women.
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Jennifer Z. Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 6:23 pm (Quote)
I agree that might be their intentions, but people really need to stop and think about how these comments make victims of actions like these feel. To read someone say “well, *I* would have kicked him had he done that to me” is really hard to read when something like this did happen to you and you know very well there was no way you could have kicked anyone.
Also, I agree, I truly hope OB’s and CNM’s and anyone who delivers babies are reading this. Maybe it can change some peoples actions.
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North of 49 Reply:
December 27th, 2009 at 11:32 pm (Quote)
I told my OB during one of my visits that I had been brutally assaulted a few years earlier and did not want any exams done without someone else in the room. He ignored me.
After the birth, when his secretary called me up, I finally had the balls to tell her that he is damn lucky I don’t get my hands on a lawyer cause I would sue him for the AROM he did without my consent and the ensuing post partum infection he gave me because he refused to give me antibiotics for the strep throat I had when I was 35 weeks. My family doctor didn’t know what to give me and told me to ask the OB. The OB said I didn’t have strep throat and swabbed me that day. I came back GBS+ (neg on a next pregnancy tho) and ended up with all sorts of problems post birth. In fact, I birthed my baby so fast, I think my body was trying to protect him from becoming sick because unlike me, all he had was a mild fever after the birth. I won’t go into what happened to me.
And I found out later that he did call CPS on me because I dared to do the homeopathic treatments (vitamin C and a few other herbs) to keep me healthy those last weeks. I should have sued him anyway. I think I’ll have my child sue him when he turns 19.
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Roxanne Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 6:48 pm (Quote)
Thank you Jennifer. It was me that had this happen. I was horribly traumatized for quite a while. I have somewhat “gotten over it”, but will never fully get there. This “OB” was the most uncaring person I have ever come across. While I was pushing my son out, he had his back turned to me, talking about real-estate with the nurses.
To all the others… It is VERY easy to say what you would have done. I was in a very vulnerable spot, and I wish that I could reverse time and be as informed as I am now about gentle birth.
My second child was born into the hands of the most gentle, caring, sensitive midwife you could imagine. I will never EVER seek out care from an OB for a pregnancy again!
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Jennifer Z. Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 7:04 pm (Quote)
Roxanne,
I’m so sorry about your experience. It is sad that women have to “educate” themselves in order to avoid being assaulted – women should just not be assaulted while giving birth, whether they studied up on the subject or not. I think every woman has the expectation that she will be treated humanely when she gives birth, and I don’t think that should be an unreasonable expectation.
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Jennifer B. Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 8:07 pm (Quote)
Thank you for this! I know that it does hurt when someone tries to say what they would have done… even if they mean well, it trivializes a person’s experience.
http://choicespirit.blogspot.com/2009/03/real-women-real-lives.html
There are so many times I read over my birth story and think, “I should have….”
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I made a comment about what my husband would have done, and if that came across as a sideways blame of the victim I apologize. I think, the vast majority of the time, the women’s reactions and flight/fight response is too dulled or delayed by labor to expect them to do anything but be startled they are being treated this way. I would never blame a woman for what was done because she ‘didn’t fight hard enough’. But I do have to wonder on a lot of these, where was the birth team, where was the male protector? Of course, maybe the fact that the doctor was forceably removed from the room by a crowd of angry mothers and aunts, or shoved aside by the husband/father/boyfriend doesn’t get listed because its not part of the ‘my ob said what?!?’, so perhaps it happens more than it appears. This kind of thing is related to assault, sexual assault, and even rape (and rightly so). If a woman is assaulted and their husband stands by and watches, society should wonder why the husband didn’t act in his wife’s defense. (and if there wasn’t a husband around, what about the mother, father, sister, brother, etc of the laboring woman?)
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Jennifer Z. Reply:
December 19th, 2009 at 7:56 am (Quote)
First, I would have to disagree that the fight/flight response is dulled by labor, I think it is actually enhanced, which tends to cause trauma afterward. But, there is more than fight or flight, there is also freeze (a deer in the headlights/shock). A laboring woman can’t flee. She may try to fight verbally, but we are not socialized to physically fight with people who we have conflicts with, especially doctors. We are socialized to physically fight with people who are assaulting us, but when you are assaulted in labor, it is hard to recognize this as assault on a conscious level (your body definitely recognized it though). It may even be hard for months afterward to recognize that, because we believe that our providers are there to take care of us and help us. Many women in these situations go to freeze because they are so shocked about what is happening. I personally went back and forth between fight (verbally) and freeze, and “kicking” my provider never even crossed my mind. For most women this would be physically impossible. They are vulnerable physically and emotionally in labor – many are physically restrained or restrained with drugs.
As for why the husband/birth team doesn’t jump in and start beating people up, it’s pretty much the same reason. The husband is also shocked by what he is seeing. He doesn’t recognize this as assault anymore than his wife does in the moment. Our society is just not socialized to see care providers as people who could or would sexually assault us, and her husband is no more likely to make that paradigm shift in thinking in the moment than the laboring woman would. He wonders if what is happening is necessary for the health of the baby, or if his wife needs what they are doing to her. My husband has never been in a physical fight in his life, so it would probably be the last thing that came into his mind, unless it was really clear to him that this was the only option – like a stranger attack. Husbands are victims in this too. They experience trauma and guilt over it too.
In all the stories of abuse I have heard of women in labor, never once has the story ended that the husband or birth team physically assaulted the care provider. I have never ever heard of that happening, nor have I heard of a woman physically assaulting the provider herself. There is one story of a woman who was a police officer and she was horribly assaulted, and even she (or her husband) did not physically fight with the care provider in the moment (she has a legal case against him the last I heard). It’s just not the reaction that either a man or a woman would ever have in the moment of this happening to them, though I am sure most fantasize about it after the fact. There is no reason to add to the guilt or trauma of anyone by implying that they or their husband should have physically fought with their care provider. Also, it’s dangerous to advocate doing that because having your husband escorted out of your birth by security, and then having CPS called and having your baby taken away would probably add to the trauma of the situation.
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Jennifer Z. Reply:
December 19th, 2009 at 8:02 am (Quote)
I also want to add, that many times the provider or nurses are female, and it would be highly unlikely that a man would think of striking a female. That is just not socially acceptable.
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Megan Reply:
December 19th, 2009 at 9:15 am (Quote)
I totally agree. I have been one of the people who has commented once or twice “OMG, I would’ve smacked/hit/kicked that doc”. I, of course, don’t mean that i *actually* would’ve done that in the moment. it’s just nice to think after the fact that I would’ve been able to do *something* to stand up for myself…but like you said, most women and their husbands are SHOCKED and don’t even realize that they are being assaulted until days/weeks/months after.
After reading your perspective, and thinking about it from ‘the other side’, I feel horrible that i have made comments like that and perhaps made a woman feel like ‘she didn’t do enough’, when by making that sort of comment, my only intention was to validate the woman’s feelings by saying “you have every right to feel like you do, i would’ve felt the same way, and would’ve wanted to punch him”. know what i mean?
I definitely will not ever say something like that again. I didn’t realize that i was hurting instead of helping. Thank you for the insight. (AND thank you for not being mean to any one who HAS made comments like that, because like me, i doubt they realized how it came across to the poster. thank you for explaining in a nice, informative way.)
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Jennifer Z. Reply:
December 19th, 2009 at 9:27 am (Quote)
Thanks for your reply. I think that you are right that people are intending for these statements to be supportive. I don’t take them as being said to be mean. I’m glad you understand where I am coming from though. And thanks for explaining where you and others are coming from when statements like this are made.
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Michelle Potter Reply:
December 19th, 2009 at 4:08 pm (Quote)
I know someone who did actually grab a (male) nurse and shove him up against a wall in a hospital. The man’s baby daughter had been in the NICU for days because of a problem caused by the hospital, she was rapidly deteriorating due to poor care even in the NICU, and the hospital was resisting the family’s attempts to get the baby moved to a better hospital. The dad snapped and put a nurse against a wall. He got away with it, too, and ultimately his daughter was transferred (in such condition that the transfer team was SHOCKED) and is now healthy. But that took days and days of constant fear for his daughter’s safety in the hands of this hospital.
And later, when his wife was giving birth to another baby and was physically assaulted by a (female) nurse during labor, he not only did not try to stop her, he HELPED. (The nurse asked him to hold his wife down, and he did.) When you compare the two stories, the same man reacting so differently in two situations, you wonder what the hell he was thinking. But as you have said, in the midst of labor, people just don’t recognize assault like that. He was only thinking that his wife needed something, and he had to help. His love for his wife and child and need to protect them actually led to his HELPING to hurt her.
When a woman is in labor, both she and those who love her are incredibly vulnerable, and they TRUST and RELY ON doctors and nurses and midwives to provide caring, evidence-based care. The reluctance and inability of the laboring woman and her support team to react to violence against her makes it all the more despicable when that trust and reliance is violated.
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Jennifer Z. Reply:
December 20th, 2009 at 8:42 am (Quote)
Yes, thank you for pointing that out. Often times the husband does “help” the hospital, thinking that the wife needs what they are doing to her. In the case of the former police officer, her husband also helped hold her down. Oftentimes partners try to get their wives to calm down and take it, thinking this is something she just has to get through. After all, the media has shown them images of screaming women in childbirth their entire lives, so when that happens, it is no indication that something is off.
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Kathy Reply:
December 20th, 2009 at 9:16 am (Quote)
And even when they know (on some level) that something just isn’t right, they may feel powerless themselves, so just want to get the experience over with (for their own sake, or for the sake of their wife), and feel that the fastest way is to “help.” For instance in the case of the former police officer (Mrs. Skol), the OB instructed the husband to hold her down while he sewed her up with a large needle without anesthetic [if I'm remembering correctly] — perhaps the husband didn’t realize what was all happening, and just thought that she needed the stitches, so the faster she got them, the better it would be for her. Probably not even thinking that he could have forcibly stopped the doctor and requested anesthetic.
It’s easy to play “Monday Morning Quarterback” in these things; much harder when you’re going through it — probably a state of shock and disbelief that it is actually happening, and only later do you have a clear head to think it could have happened differently.
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To the mother who had to endure this, I am truly sorry. I know the pain of labour and that is enough without having a doctor assault you trying to do what he or she feels is in your best interest.
After reading the comments I felt compelled to comment myself. I’m currently in an RN program with the intention of gaining a Masters degree in Nursing then entering a midwifery program. Reading all of these stories reminds me every single day of the kind of provider I do NOT want to be, and I am truly thankful. I want to thank everyone who submits something to this site because some of these are truly shocking. I hope, as the rest of you, that some OB’s are reading these and seeing what they do WRONG.
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Jennifer Z., I really appreciate your input here. As a childbirth educator, I try to prepare my students for situations like this, but I know that in the moment, what you say you would do beforehand does not always happen.
What would you suggest we teach women? Teach their partners? I really, really emphasize researching care providers, but sometimes you get stuck with someone who is horrible.
One thing I can think of, is to have a doula with you. Someone who is not so emotionally attached and can step back and look at things with a different perspective.
Reading your replies leaves me with a feeling of hopelessness. Like, if something like this is happening, we most likely won’t react, and if we do, we could get in trouble. It makes me angry that it sounds like we have absolutely no power in the situation.
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Jennifer Z. Reply:
December 20th, 2009 at 9:11 am (Quote)
Amy,
That is a good question and one I struggle with. I had a doula at my birth and there was nothing she could do. The reason there was nothing she could do is because doula’s certifying organizations do now allow them to advocate for women. They say they advocate, but they change the meaning of the word to mean that they remind the mother what her wishes were and encourage her to advocate for herself. If the mother is already screaming “no”, “don’t”, “stop” or “get out”, there is nothing the doula can do if she wants to stay within her bounds of being a doula. I have heard that some doulas will say to the provider, “do you hear that she is saying ‘no’?” or she will say to the mother, “do you have a question about this?” Those phrases may work in a moment of abuse, but they may not. It also puts the doula slightly at risk of being kicked out of the room, and when the situation is so horrible, some doulas choose not to take that risk. Many doulas are also traumatized at births like this (even when the mother is not) because they witness such abuse and there is really nothing they can do.
I feel that educating women individually is not working as a strategy to stop abuse (education has some benefits and is worthwhile, but it does not protect women from abuse), because education does not stop abuse and oftentimes it puts women at greater risk of it (women who go along for the hospital ride and do whatever is suggested rarely are forced to comply with something they don’t want). Therefore I feel this is something that needs to be changed on an institutional level. The problem is systemic, and the system itself needs to be changed.
I feel that education is a good idea, but we are educating the wrong people. Educating nurses and care providers about informed consent and refusal is one way to prevent these abuses from occurring. Raising awareness about the issue is another way. Encouraging women to rate their providers (especially when they had a bad experience) at http://www.thebirthsurvey.com and to look up facilities and providers before choosing one for pregnancy and birth there would be an excellent way to put maternity care more in the hands of consumers and let women know what they are getting before they choose that provider. Also, fighting for more birth centers and more homebirth midwifery and then educating women about why this may be a better choice. Along with that, educate homebirth midwives about informed consent and refusal (because sadly some of them are not immune to causing birth trauma in women). The MAMA Campaign would be a great place to work with as they are trying to get homebirth midwifery legalized in every state.
I think many childbirth educators and doulas make the mistake of thinking that if a woman is educated and if she has a doula she is immune to this type of abuse happening to her. I think that is completely opposite of what we actually see; most stories of abuse I have read and heard are women who were highly educated about childbirth, who knew what they did and not want to happen, who thought they could go in and choose or refuse procedures as they had been taught they could do, and who had hired a doula because she thought a doula would “advocate” for her. I am finding that these women are at a much greater risk of being abused in birth. It is not right that they are abused. Women should be able to choose and refuse procedures and have their legal rights to informed consent and refusal upheld, but it is not what is happening in practice.
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Sheva Reply:
December 20th, 2009 at 9:29 am (Quote)
I was going to say the same thing. I was going to start a doula certification program but they tell us we are not allowed to stand up for our clients, nor are we allowed to tell the care provider what the client wants. We are only allowed to remind the mother what she wanted. (What, like she forgot?)
I had one mother who didn’t want pitocin, and I asked her in front of the doc if she wanted time to think about it.
Then, when the time was up, I had coached her what to say, and she said it perfectly!
Then, when the nurse came in a few hours later to put it in (without checking to see if the mom had progressed without it) I told the mother in front of the nurse that it would be a good idea for her to wait until the doctor came in to check her, before putting it in. I know I’m officially not supposed to do that, but if the doula doesn’t take care of the mother, who will??
Also, they could threaten to throw you out, but as long as you’re not breaking any hospital rules, they can’t really.
And you can ask for the patient advocate before that happens, and you can even go up to the hospital administrator. This was told to me by someone who worked in a hospital.
She said they’ll tell you they can’t get a hold of that person, but keep asking sweetly and they’ll eventually get them for you.
I plan to use this info with my next client, if I need it, and I’ll keep you posted.
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Jennifer Z. Reply:
December 20th, 2009 at 10:07 am (Quote)
I think the reason that certifying agencies put these rules into place is that they don’t want the hospitals to ban doulas. That does happen. If doulas continually act in a way where the doctors feel their medical authority is being challenged, the hospital may outlaw doulas altogether. I think the certifying agencies are thinking along the lines of, “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”. So the individual woman who is being abused, or manipulated, or coerced does not have a true advocate because the certifying agencies feel it is better for most women to be able to have a doula. I can see where they are coming from, but ethically I could never be a doula and have to be in the position of sacrificing the needs of the woman I am with for the needs of more women. It is a heartbreaking position to have to be put into, and I have no idea how doulas cope with it.
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Shelli Reply:
June 29th, 2010 at 9:50 am (Quote)
It’s not about the woman forgetting, it’s about making sure that she feels she can use her voice. She knows she didn’t want an episiotomy (or whatever), but the provider is intimidating and often using fear tactics. I don’t need to tell an OB not to cut, I just need to say to the mother in front of him that “you didn’t want one for XYZ reasons, he is about to perform one, would you like to continue?” It’s about allowing her to speak up for herself, not my ego getting to talk.
And no, they can’t really throw you out, until the OB calls security and tells them that you are interferring with his ability to treat his patient. I’m sure it does great things for the client’s support to get arrested in her room. They can also change policies that only allow one partner in L&D, and I can bet, that most women aren’t going to give up their spouse so they can have a professional labor assistant.
I’ve never felt that I’m sacrificing my current client for the betterment of the whole. I think there’s a serious misunderstanding of what a doula does and how she does it.
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Jennifer Z. Reply:
June 29th, 2010 at 1:02 pm (Quote)
I was speaking specifically about abusive situations. Some doctors cut episiotomies without informing or asking the woman. In this case, a doula can inform her client what is happening, but probably not fast enough to stop it. She can’t simply say no for her client. Also, when her client is saying ‘no’ or screaming ‘no’, there is nothing a doula can do. She can’t directly advocate for her client. You are speaking of the standard situation, not the abusive one. In those cases a doula can be beneficial and there is no ethical dilema.
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Shelli Reply:
June 29th, 2010 at 1:49 pm (Quote)
I am speaking about abusive situations. What exactly can you do that I can’t? Your saying no instead of her is no more likely to stop an abuser, probably less so as you have no right to speak for her unless she is incapacitated and you have a MPoA. My statement stops the provider from acting except in the most extreme, see next para.
“Also, when her client is saying ‘no’ or screaming ‘no’, there is nothing a doula can do.”
There is nothing anyone can do short of physically restraining the provider in extreme instances where the provider blatantly ignores refusal of consent. I would have no ethical dilemma providing a physical barrier to prevent assault. My guidelines are to support the client in advocating for herself. If she is being assaulted against her consent, I am not overstepping my bounds by protecting her.
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Jennifer Z. Reply:
June 29th, 2010 at 1:58 pm (Quote)
Um, yeah, exactly. I point is that a doula can’t do anything to protect the client from abuse, unless she speaks for the client which certifying agencies do not allow. I don’t know what you do individually as a doula, I was speaking about what doula’s are allowed to do generally through their certifying agencies. Also, violations of informed consent run rampant in maternity care, so if it is alright with you as a doula to physically intervene or speak for your client in those situations, their may eventually be consequences for you or for other doulas because providers generally don’t want to allow doulas in their hospitals who will fight with them.
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Shelli Reply:
June 29th, 2010 at 10:23 am (Quote)
I think your assertion that educated women with doulas are more likely to be abused/assaulted, it patently false. It’s much more likely that those are the women who are more likely to recognize the assault. Women who walk into L&D with no extra research outside of TV, think that whatever happens to them is the norm, and regardless of if they feel abused or not, they don’t talk about it as much, because as far as they know they’re upset about “silly things”.
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Jennifer Z. Reply:
June 29th, 2010 at 1:09 pm (Quote)
I think that is part of it for sure, however, most women who are not educated are also not abused. If a woman is not educated, she will likely accept any recommendation by her doctor. She will agree to the induction, the IV, the drugs, and the c-section, etc. without any fight whatsoever believing the entire time that she is protecting her baby by choosing these interventions. She wont be abused if she agrees to what the doctor or institution wants her to. On the other hand, if a woman says no to all of the above and more, and wants to labor drug-free which makes her a nuisance to the staff, she could be targeted for being abused. Furthermore, if she says no to every intervention offered to her, and ends up fighting for her rights to say no, she may encounter the staff and her provider fighting back. She may then experience abusive actions; manipulation, coercion, and force. The uneducated woman who simply accepts all interventions from the get go is not going to be abused fought with and abused in this manner because she is being a “good” patient and going along with what they want her to do.
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North of 49 had this to say,
Dec 27, 2009 @ 11:37 pm (Quote)
Of course women don’t fight when they are dealing with assholes like the above – how can they when the guilt of “what’s best for the baby” tied in with the threat of legalized kidnapping by Child Services and even imprisonment if they don’t obey what the doctor, and hospital, orders? Even if the threat isn’t implied, it is there. CPS uses pregnant women as a thermometer – is that a bruise? is her baby daddy hitting her? is she psychotic? is she obeying doctor’s orders? any number of reasons and boom, in comes CPS with or even without a court order and bye bye baby.
Don’t ever blame a woman for not fighting back. If she does, she might loose more than just her relationship with her doctor.
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Marie Reply:
December 31st, 2009 at 5:05 am (Quote)
any number of reasons and boom, in comes CPS with or even without a court order and bye bye baby.
That’s not true. CPS cannot take children without a court order. If you are released AMA and go home, you don’t even have to let them in without an appointment (and witnesses) if they do not have a court order.
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Kat Reply:
December 31st, 2009 at 12:25 pm (Quote)
True, but that’s hardly common knowledge. Someone shows up on your doorstep who is aggressive, speaks authoritatively, and tells you that you “must” do certain things. You are exhausted from fighting with the caregiver you thought you could trust. Your hormones are raging, and intensifying emotions.
So hopefully you can be quick on your feet when you answer the door and ten seconds later two strangers are INSIDE your home without being invited, telling you that they “have to” see your kids and they “have to” inspect your house.
Thankfully, I was. It was only by the grace of God though that I could think clearly enough the day after holding my baby boy in my arms as he died. I calmly and clearly stated that if they wanted to go over my house they were welcome to return with a warrant. They asked why I “felt that way” and I replied “That is the law.”
Suddenly they were not quite as belligerent, and they asked for contact info for the children’s doctor and our pastors/parents. To my knowledge they never contacted our family, and we never did see that warrant.
But if I hadn’t been homeschooled (in a state where the laws were hostile to it, at first) I wouldn’t have had it drilled into me NOT to let DFACS in without a warrant/court order, and I shudder to think how awful it would have felt to have these prying strangers going through my (clean, safe, and properly maintained) home.
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North of 49 Reply:
January 2nd, 2010 at 10:40 am (Quote)
Actually, CPS can remove first and investigate later. There have been cases as well of pregnant women forced to undergo cesareans by court order that the hospital has procured without even notifying her that they were going to court against her. And other women who have been threatened with jail if they didn’t do as demanded by doctors. It is all part of the CPS babymill. To them, our children are not beloved, they are a cash cow that the feds will pay for. If you are poor, disadvantaged, illeducated, never mind addicted, CPS will mow you down and take your child. There is no “innocent until proven guilty.” There are mandated reporters and “what’s best for the child.”
The stupid thing is that if you don’t let CPS in your house, obviously you are hiding something and must therefore be guilty, but if you do, they have just as much of a chance of making a case against you. They can and have stripped a 16 year old girl at school to investigate for suspected bruises. Web searches bring up all sorts of horror stories about CPS overstepping their boundaries, destroying women’s rights to autonomy in pregnancy and violating our children – all in the name of “saving the child.”
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Michelle Potter Reply:
January 2nd, 2010 at 9:21 pm (Quote)
There is a difference between what CPS is allowed to do by law, and what some* overzealous social workers do because a) they think they know best; b) they do not always know what the actual legal limits of their authority are; c) sometimes the police do not seem to know these limits and help them; and d) parents who don’t know their rights let them.
(*Some, meaning not all, and probably not even most, but enough in Texas alone to fill a monthly newsletter from a legal association I belong to with actual cases that the lawyers who represent our group were actually involved in, where CPS overstepped their legal bounds and had to have the law explained to them. When you’re talking about a government entity that in certain cases has authority and discretion to remove children from their families, even a few cases like that a month is SCARY. And that’s just in our group!)
I can’t speak to anywhere else, but in Texas CPS cannot come into your home or speak to your children unless a) there is an obvious emergency situation; b) they have a court-ordered search warrant; or c) you give them permission. (Additionally, refusing them entrance is NOT legal grounds for a search warrant, anymore than it’s legal grounds for the police to get a search warrant.) They might tell you that you HAVE to let them in. They might even believe that’s true. (That’s scary to me. I just don’t trust any government agent who either doesn’t my rights, or is lying to me about them.) But it’s in your best interest to refuse them entrance.
Unfortunately, most people are afraid, think they don’t have the right to say no, or think it’s ok because they have nothing to hide, so they let CPS in. This is the problem. You may think you are relying on your good parenting to be self-evident and prove your innocence, but really you are relying on a total stranger to be honest, fair, unbiased, and good at their job. That’s just not a risk I want to take if said total stranger has (or even thinks she has) the authority to take my children from me. There is a REASON that the constitution forbids the government from coming into your home and poking around whenever they want, and that is to protect INNOCENT people from abuse, bias, mistakes, and poor judgment on the part of individual government officials.
Here is what the lawyers at the Texas Home School Coalition (an association that provides legal assistance to Texas homeschoolers, of which I am a member) say you should do if CPS ever comes to your door (http://www.thsc.org/Getting_Started/CPS.asp):
The CPS Worker at Your Door
* Record any conversation or interview with a CPS worker, using audio or video recording devices. (We recommend this to ensure that you can later prove what was said and by whom.)
* When you begin recording, state your name and the date and ask each person involved to give their name and title as well.
* Stay calm.
* Be polite and friendly. Smile.
* Get the social worker’s business card.
* Do not let him into your home. The only legal ways into your home are with:
- emergency situation (immediate and obvious danger to life or limb),
- your permission, or
- a search warrant.
* Do not allow him to interview your children.
* Tell him you are willing to cooperate if he will tell you what the charges are.
* When he tells you, tell him you will take your child(ren) to your physician and have him write a report to CPS.
* Repeat the above statements as often as necessary. Do not be afraid of silence.
* After he leaves,
- write down everything that occurred and
- call THSC Association and/or your attorney.
[Reply]
Michelle Potter Reply:
January 2nd, 2010 at 9:32 pm (Quote)
(PS none of the above should be construed to mean that I do not trust our legal system. I do. I believe that “the system works.” I just recognize that the rights of the accused are an IMPORTANT, INTEGRAL part of a system that is intended to judge the guilty while protecting and vindicating the innocent.)
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North of 49 Reply:
January 6th, 2010 at 9:11 am (Quote)
Actually, it is interesting that you mention recording them. Here, north of 49, they are not allowed to continue with interviews if they find out they are being recorded. That seems to be our only defense against them when they come a knocking.
But when you are vulnerable and in the hospitable, that’s a completely different situation. Once home, you have your doors. The hospital? CPS can easily put a block on you being able to take your baby home if they have “suspicions” of any type. Valid or not, they can cause all sorts of havoc while you work to get your baby freed from the legalized kidnappers, meantime, you’ve lost all that bonding time while some other woman has bonded with your child instead.
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Michelle, that is GREAT info for any parent to know. Thanks for posting it.
I am not as optimistic about “the system.”
I’ve sorta seen both sides. As I said, I was the mom who had CPS knock on the door and walk in my house without even asking “may we come in” just there they were in my living room (we told them we’d gladly discuss whatever, but on the porch NOT in our home).
I also have a brother in law who was in the foster care system, and a dear friend who is currently a foster mom and fighting “the system” over children who were severely abused in their own homes and are now being failed again by the system that is supposedly “rescuing” them from that abuse.
The system may be better than nothing, but it’s really messed up even so. It’s heartbreaking.
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I wonder… does anyone know if an OB or nurse has been brought up on assault charges for this kind of treatment? I know it gets much worse than this, too.
[Reply]
Jennifer Z. Reply:
December 18th, 2009 at 5:33 pm Jennifer Z.(Quote)
It is extremely rare, and almost impossible to find a lawyer who would take a case like this. There are no precedents, and you would have to hire a civil attorney, who don’t work on a contingency, so you would have to pay all legal expenses. There is not a big chance you would win either, so you might be out this money. I personally never even got past the receptionists when I called around to different attorneys. By the time I found one who would talk to me, the statute of limitations was up.
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